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On March 27 2012 22:29 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 22:23 Hider wrote:On March 27 2012 22:16 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 22:13 Hider wrote:On March 27 2012 22:08 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 22:03 HwangjaeTerran wrote:On March 27 2012 22:01 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 21:56 Fluffboll wrote:On March 27 2012 21:52 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 21:50 Azzur wrote:
Terrans have no answer to this Zerg lategame composition
At least now anyways Eh, Gumiho was really unprepared for the broodlords in this match; he didn't start viking production until broods were already morphing. I think it is pretty balanced. Actually, if you produce enough vikings to take out the Brood Lords and Corruptors the tech switch to Ultra/Ling will kill you so Terran lategame is really bad versus zerg lategame at this moment in time. Terrans can still win vs zerg by not letting the zerg get to the lategame however. That's an economy issue then; broodlord/corruptor is really expensive, so if the terran has let the zerg get such an economic lead that the zerg can afford to lose all his corruptors and broods and then mass out of ultra/lings, then you were probably behind anyway. In a lot of broodlord corruptor pushes the zerg uses all of his money on those units, so if he loses them he can't really afford a big tech switch. I think that leads us to the point: Don't let zerg reach the lategame. I wouldn't call fast tech with no economy to back it up lategame. Lategame =/= letting zerg do whatever he wants. If you let the zerg sit on 5 bases without attacking for 20 mins, then yeah they gcan do that really expensive gas switch no problem. The idea is that even in the lategame you deny expansions, snipe expos, trade armies etc. so the zerg can't build up a giant bank while on 200/200. Edit: also drops are really good against zerg lategame. Couple of dropships can kill a lot of tech / drones etc.. Watch stephano plays. He has great multitasking. And simply deals with early attacks. There is no way (IMO) that you can do a lot of damage early game/midgame to a zerg who simply plays very well like stephano. What works on your ladder game isn't suppoed to work on top top zerg players. And its only gonna get worse in the future (zergs gonna get better and better), untill (if) the terran finds a way to beat the army. Well yeah, but Stephano is hardly invincible. Also, what you're describing can be explained by Stephano being more skilled than the terrans he faces. (But again, he's not invincible; he is beaten by good terrans like Polt a lot of the time.) You can't just point to one good player and say "oh zerg can't be dealt with"; maybe you need a terran stephano? But what is the terran supposed to do? The problem is right now that when the zerg gets to a certain skill level, he learns how to deal with the immoblity issues of broodlord/infestor. And then he will be able to absolutely crush every single terran players in a straight up battle. So the terran needs to find a way to be somewhat efficient against broodlord/infestor. Maybe they will find a way. But currently no terran has a long-term solution for this. And this isn't about skill level. The terran can have 400+ APM, (like MKP micro + fantastic knowledge of the game), but he still wont be able to beat a zerg who doesn't make mistakes. So the thing is: Terran needs to find a way to win late game, and the long term solution isn't gonna be counterattacking. The long-term solution has to be a unit composition that can at least trade somewhat even in a battle (of course given good micro) with broodlord/infestor. This feels like kind of an oversimplification. Saying a zerg "Just learns how to deal with drops" discounts the Terran's role in making drops work. (Day9 used to talk about that in his earlier dailies, although it was never a focus.) Why does Terran's solution need to be a unit composition that can trade evenly with Zerg's? Why can't it be a whole game plan that puts the terran in a favorable position lategame? Why can't it be counterattack-based?
i must agree with this.
i think the argument for "balance" shouldn't be about how all races can trade effectively with each other at each stage but that they have different strengths and the player must exploit the strengths to position himself to take the game.
so i'd think (and i lose a lot to zergs late game as terran) that the question is not really about whether they late game is balanced or the mid game is balanced or whatever, its just about how you manipulate your resources
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Make Phoenixes, they said!
Counter mutas, they said!
Curious controlled that attack pretty well to clean up so much.
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Curious throwing 1500 gas away.
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Wow, he builds an infestation pit!
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I'm not sure if any of these players should be in the Ro16.
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Does hero have blink? -_-
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these are my favorite types of games. hero is behind, however. but hive is far away.
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Wolf always moans about pheonix micro, would love to see how good he can do it..
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On March 27 2012 22:34 ydeer1993 wrote:
Wolf always moans about pheonix micro, would love to see how good he can do it..
He's not a progamer, you're allowed to expect professionals to not fuck up.
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HerO what are you doing with your units T_T
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God Blizzard give the Phoenix upgrade right from stargate tech, it's useless and takes too long from the fleep bacon. Someone send this game to blizzard...
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3 lone Phoenixes 
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36920 Posts
KEEP DEFENDING HERO!!!! U CAN DO IT MAN!!!
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On March 27 2012 22:34 bittman wrote:
TheBest Pheonixes
hahaha awesome.
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On March 27 2012 22:29 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 22:23 Hider wrote:On March 27 2012 22:16 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 22:13 Hider wrote:On March 27 2012 22:08 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 22:03 HwangjaeTerran wrote:On March 27 2012 22:01 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 21:56 Fluffboll wrote:On March 27 2012 21:52 rothsbury wrote:On March 27 2012 21:50 Azzur wrote:
Terrans have no answer to this Zerg lategame composition
At least now anyways Eh, Gumiho was really unprepared for the broodlords in this match; he didn't start viking production until broods were already morphing. I think it is pretty balanced. Actually, if you produce enough vikings to take out the Brood Lords and Corruptors the tech switch to Ultra/Ling will kill you so Terran lategame is really bad versus zerg lategame at this moment in time. Terrans can still win vs zerg by not letting the zerg get to the lategame however. That's an economy issue then; broodlord/corruptor is really expensive, so if the terran has let the zerg get such an economic lead that the zerg can afford to lose all his corruptors and broods and then mass out of ultra/lings, then you were probably behind anyway. In a lot of broodlord corruptor pushes the zerg uses all of his money on those units, so if he loses them he can't really afford a big tech switch. I think that leads us to the point: Don't let zerg reach the lategame. I wouldn't call fast tech with no economy to back it up lategame. Lategame =/= letting zerg do whatever he wants. If you let the zerg sit on 5 bases without attacking for 20 mins, then yeah they gcan do that really expensive gas switch no problem. The idea is that even in the lategame you deny expansions, snipe expos, trade armies etc. so the zerg can't build up a giant bank while on 200/200. Edit: also drops are really good against zerg lategame. Couple of dropships can kill a lot of tech / drones etc.. Watch stephano plays. He has great multitasking. And simply deals with early attacks. There is no way (IMO) that you can do a lot of damage early game/midgame to a zerg who simply plays very well like stephano. What works on your ladder game isn't suppoed to work on top top zerg players. And its only gonna get worse in the future (zergs gonna get better and better), untill (if) the terran finds a way to beat the army. Well yeah, but Stephano is hardly invincible. Also, what you're describing can be explained by Stephano being more skilled than the terrans he faces. (But again, he's not invincible; he is beaten by good terrans like Polt a lot of the time.) You can't just point to one good player and say "oh zerg can't be dealt with"; maybe you need a terran stephano? But what is the terran supposed to do? The problem is right now that when the zerg gets to a certain skill level, he learns how to deal with the immoblity issues of broodlord/infestor. And then he will be able to absolutely crush every single terran players in a straight up battle. So the terran needs to find a way to be somewhat efficient against broodlord/infestor. Maybe they will find a way. But currently no terran has a long-term solution for this. And this isn't about skill level. The terran can have 400+ APM, (like MKP micro + fantastic knowledge of the game), but he still wont be able to beat a zerg who doesn't make mistakes. So the thing is: Terran needs to find a way to win late game, and the long term solution isn't gonna be counterattacking. The long-term solution has to be a unit composition that can at least trade somewhat even in a battle (of course given good micro) with broodlord/infestor. This feels like kind of an oversimplification. Saying a zerg "Just learns how to deal with drops" discounts the Terran's role in making drops work. (Day9 used to talk about that in his earlier dailies, although it was never a focus.) Why does Terran's solution need to be a unit composition that can trade evenly with Zerg's? Why can't it be a whole game plan that puts the terran in a favorable position lategame? Why can't it be counterattack-based?
Because you can't rely on counterattacks to win the game. It can be an option. But somwhere along the lines the zergs will find a way to defend and defend. And then they have that big deathball.
Its sorta like why someone like Artosis thinks mech is suppoed to win everything tvt (in the long term). However mech vs bio isn't actually as bad (from the bio perspective) as bio/mech vs broodlord/infestor. The relative difference in mobility between mech and bio (tvt) is much higher than the difference in moblity between biomech and broodlord infestor (esp if he has a lot of blings as well).
With bio as well (on large maps) you can always to some extent trade armies against a mech terran (becuase as the mech player you often need to split up your army, this makes it possible for the bio guy to pick up a few tanks here and there.). YOu can't do that against a ling/infestor/broodlord/infestor army. At some time he is just gonna get that deathball zerg army, and the game is basically over if he is able to deal with counterattacks and drops. (i think zergs will start to have a few infestors at home to prevent the efficiency of counterattacks - this combined with spinecrawlers + some blings will slow down counterattacks so badly).
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4713 Posts
Wolf is right you know, if you spend that much time per day practicing you should be able to do it way better, especially now when its incorporated as a key part of a build.
Phoenix micro was sloppy, but good enough given how sloppy Curious is playing.
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stop building mutas in hive transition phase argh
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On March 27 2012 22:34 ydeer1993 wrote:
Wolf always moans about pheonix micro, would love to see how good he can do it..
what on earth would that have to do with it?
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EPT
