|
On February 10 2012 13:04 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:58 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up  but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks! Storms. Like... a Parting amount of them. No zerg will split his muta ball up, so you just storm them wherever you can. Also note that you can't go mutas like that on every map, you need lots of dead space to be able to flee from blink stalkers. I feel like to get to the point where you have a enough storms for that to be true, you need to have the economy, and Mutalisks shut down expansions. That's another thing I've realized about that sort of strategy, it seemed even more effective on Tal'Darim Altar. I think it's great to tailor certain strategies for specific maps, but if a strategy is so good on a map where it becomes almost impossible to beat, then I think there may be a problem. It seemed that the short distance form main to third on Tal'Darim Altar made it almost impossible (I know that's a different game then the Destiny v Choya game, but the game I'm thinking about was Destiny vs MaNa in IPL TAC 2 and it pertains to the discussion).
Choya did not have great decision-making in my opinion, and he should not have let Destiny get to that point of mass mutas and mass spines. The Storms and Blink Stalkers were destroying the mutas, but then Choya decided to base-race against mutas into a wall of spines.
|
On February 10 2012 13:04 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:58 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks! Storms. Like... a Parting amount of them. No zerg will split his muta ball up, so you just storm them wherever you can. Also note that you can't go mutas like that on every map, you need lots of dead space to be able to flee from blink stalkers. I feel like to get to the point where you have a enough storms for that to be true, you need to have the economy, and Mutalisks shut down expansions. That's another thing I've realized about that sort of strategy, it seemed even more effective on Tal'Darim Altar. I think it's great to tailor certain strategies for specific maps, but if a strategy is so good on a map where it becomes almost impossible to beat, then I think there may be a problem. It seemed that the short distance form main to third on Tal'Darim Altar made it almost impossible (I know that's a different game then the Destiny v Choya game, but the game I'm thinking about was Destiny vs MaNa in IPL TAC 2 and it pertains to the discussion).
Yea its a really good strategy on taldarim, because the zerg has so many expansions to take and the protoss has difficulty getting a 4th. But on this map, choya was only behind 1 base for a majority of the game. Also mutalisks are very gas heavy and you cant use them in direct engagements until you get a very large amount of them. Choya was defending pretty well until the part of the game where he lost that first mothership and his army was out of position so he couldnt defend his main. If he had his mothership he could have done things like go snipe expansions and recall back to prevent the base trade. Also he needed more archons to go along with the high templars.
|
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this.
|
On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this.
pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers.
|
On February 10 2012 15:12 -stOpSKY- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers.
Where did you hear this from? I'm pretty sure FXO would have gladly played on the Korean server considering their team is in Korea.
|
Genius shut down Nestea's muta play.
|
On February 10 2012 13:01 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks! Did you watch Nestea vs Genius yesterday? It made me cry Ultra-sized Zerg tears ;_;
That is not even remotely similar situations. Genius opened Stargate and was pumping out Phoenix while Nestea was stuck on 2-base economy.
|
On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this.
Why? Do you get angry watching GSTL when they put out players other than their aces? Its a good way for their less experienced players to test themselves vs some high level players in a competitive environment to see how they stack up. I for one enjoy seeing relatively lesser known players face off vs known quantities. Its win win for Quantic in my opinion, their players get experience, they get to see where they stand relative to korean pros, they get exposure for their lesser players, and no one expects them to win, so if they lose everyone's expectations are met, if they win, it would be a pretty big deal and a lot of buzz would be generated because of it. Good decision if you ask me.
|
how 1 sided was flo v oz?
|
On February 10 2012 15:12 -stOpSKY- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers.
Do you have any evidence supporting this?
|
On February 11 2012 01:51 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 15:12 -stOpSKY- wrote:On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers. Do you have any evidence supporting this?
Yeah, this doesn't even make sense considering they were playing a Korean team. I would like an explanation as to why Quantic isn't taking this tournament as seriously as other teams. I mean FXO put out all their best players, and Quantic cannot put out NaNi or Sase? Maybe these games were filmed four and half months ago, though.
|
On February 10 2012 15:12 -stOpSKY- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers.
having players refuse or not want to play makes this even worse i don;t know why you thought saying that would make it better. even more disappointed then ever.
|
On February 10 2012 18:27 miken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. Why? Do you get angry watching GSTL when they put out players other than their aces? Its a good way for their less experienced players to test themselves vs some high level players in a competitive environment to see how they stack up. I for one enjoy seeing relatively lesser known players face off vs known quantities. Its win win for Quantic in my opinion, their players get experience, they get to see where they stand relative to korean pros, they get exposure for their lesser players, and no one expects them to win, so if they lose everyone's expectations are met, if they win, it would be a pretty big deal and a lot of buzz would be generated because of it. Good decision if you ask me.
theres a difference between choosing a few lesser players when you know you can fall back to your aces if need be and picking all lesser players when you can't have a fall back plan due to the very nature of the setup. one is exposure the other is throwing games pure and simple and i am not interested in watching a team like that. Are they going to go 0-8 in the group with out a fight simply becuase they can't make the playoffs any more? who wants to see that?
|
On February 11 2012 03:28 magicallypuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 15:12 -stOpSKY- wrote:On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. pretty sure they didnt want to play because they are in korea and get lag on NA servers. having players refuse or not want to play makes this even worse i don;t know why you thought saying that would make it better. even more disappointed then ever.
well crap didn;t mean to triple post wish i knew how to delete post on here./
|
On February 11 2012 03:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 18:27 miken wrote:On February 10 2012 14:31 magicallypuzzled wrote:
got to say that i am really disappointed with quantic not playing one of their top players. even if they were out of the playoffs something i am not at all convinced of they still should of played. this isn't quite as bad as dignitas forfeiting their fifth game last tournament but it left the same bad taste in my mouth.
hope quantic don't make a habbit of this. Why? Do you get angry watching GSTL when they put out players other than their aces? Its a good way for their less experienced players to test themselves vs some high level players in a competitive environment to see how they stack up. I for one enjoy seeing relatively lesser known players face off vs known quantities. Its win win for Quantic in my opinion, their players get experience, they get to see where they stand relative to korean pros, they get exposure for their lesser players, and no one expects them to win, so if they lose everyone's expectations are met, if they win, it would be a pretty big deal and a lot of buzz would be generated because of it. Good decision if you ask me. theres a difference between choosing a few lesser players when you know you can fall back to your aces if need be and picking all lesser players when you can't have a fall back plan due to the very nature of the setup. one is exposure the other is throwing games pure and simple and i am not interested in watching a team like that. Are they going to go 0-8 in the group with out a fight simply becuase they can't make the playoffs any more? who wants to see that?
Eh, there's been several gstl where a team have lost without having their top players participate (supposidly because they had gsl games sometime in the future but no one knows for sure). There's little difference unless you actually know why they quantic didn't produce theirs.
|
Destiny vs Choya now.. Destiny you better have won this game cause I wanna see Flo play! 
|
While I'm sure they had their reasons for their lineup I really do wish they could have put out their A lineup for this match, because to be honest I think they may have had a pretty decent shot at winning. Naniwa and Sase are both very capable of winning vs FXO's best and anything can happen if it goes to the ace match. While the individual win may not have meant much for this league, I think showing other big Leagues that your team puts up a fight despite what the results say could bode well in being considered for future team leagues. I think its also quite an accomplishment that Quantic could have been proud of to beat FXO when they put out this caliber of lineup.
|
Did they really put Flo against Oz one of the best protoss in the world ?
|
Well played by Destiny but pretty poor play by Choya I feel. If he just made 6:ish phoenixes instead of going mothership he probably would've won
|
Flo seemed really nervous against Oz, I think that caused the so quick victory. I don't think she should have lost there I mean 4 rax + bunkers as well highground against 3g pressure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
