|
On February 10 2012 12:25 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:24 lichter wrote:On February 10 2012 12:15 SC2NeCro wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 MisterFred wrote: Flo gets her shot. Hell, if she just makes the game close it's a major PR win. Yeah who cares about competitive matches. It's all 'bout the PR! Quantic have mentioned many times before that they want a team that is entertaining and has personality, competitiveness is just one of the requirements. Thanks for the heads up. I'll stop wasting my time with watching any Quantic player from now. Except NaNiWa because he's clearly not about that.
Is SaSe, the first ever non-korean in the final of the ESV korean weekly not competitive either no??....
|
On February 10 2012 12:26 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:24 kubiks wrote: Usually the sign of a player outclassing an other one is to kill someone with pressure. (but well anyway there are not that many foreign player that Oz doesn't outclas :D) But still not as funny as MC winning in a DT rush in PvP without making a single DT :D what match was that? MC vs Naniwa at an MLG ? I think.
The 3gate pressure MC win was first round TSL, MC vs Ciara. That was sadder than this match, because Ciara literally had no units and didn't gg out.
|
On February 10 2012 12:24 kubiks wrote: Usually the sign of a player outclassing an other one is to kill someone with pressure. (but well anyway there are not that many foreign player that Oz doesn't outclas :D) But still not as funny as MC winning in a DT rush in PvP without making a single DT :D wait, what? lol did that really happen?
I remember MC doing a normal 3 gate expand and attacking with it like a 4 gater would, killing the poor zerg and making him ragequit. It reminded me of a person trying to pick up an insect but accidentally killing it.
But DT rush into no DTs is whole another level of amazing o.O
|
On February 10 2012 12:23 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:16 Shebuha wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:11 Shellshock1122 wrote: Nice we get to see Flo. Solid win Destiny Rofl? Mass mutas and spines = solid win. Interesting. Yeah, you have to play certain play styles to get a solid win. Some strategies just don't earn solid wins and are undeserving of recognition. ... Rolf? You are misunderstanding i think; it was a win. Win is a win - obviously. But i took issue with the word "solid", because there is nothing solid about massing a single unit. Yeah, nothing solid about his mechanics or decision making. ... He played a good game and played well. Saying he "just made one unit" is a poor way to break down a game of SC2.
|
On February 10 2012 12:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:15 SC2NeCro wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 MisterFred wrote: Flo gets her shot. Hell, if she just makes the game close it's a major PR win. Yeah who cares about competitive matches. It's all 'bout the PR! Quantic have mentioned many times before that they want a team that is entertaining and has personality, competitiveness is just one of the requirements.
No that's not true at all... Competition takes precedence over everything -_-.
|
On February 10 2012 12:28 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:23 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:16 Shebuha wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:11 Shellshock1122 wrote: Nice we get to see Flo. Solid win Destiny Rofl? Mass mutas and spines = solid win. Interesting. Yeah, you have to play certain play styles to get a solid win. Some strategies just don't earn solid wins and are undeserving of recognition. ... Rolf? You are misunderstanding i think; it was a win. Win is a win - obviously. But i took issue with the word "solid", because there is nothing solid about massing a single unit. Why? His build seemed pretty solid to me. It's really not as easy as it seems. One slip up can cost you like 1300 gas worth of mutas. Besides even players like MC and MKP mass one unit and win all the time. In fact I would say its even easier to mass stalkers and mass marines than it is to mass mutas. Ya, Choya badly misplayed the defense of that. Despite being on 4 bases.
|
Australia8532 Posts
On February 10 2012 12:29 Jell wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:23 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:16 Shebuha wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:11 Shellshock1122 wrote: Nice we get to see Flo. Solid win Destiny Rofl? Mass mutas and spines = solid win. Interesting. Yeah, you have to play certain play styles to get a solid win. Some strategies just don't earn solid wins and are undeserving of recognition. ... Rolf? You are misunderstanding i think; it was a win. Win is a win - obviously. But i took issue with the word "solid", because there is nothing solid about massing a single unit. Yes, of course! So it isn't a solid win because he built a lot of mutas! I guess I should take that into account, every player who wins doing muta/spine crawler, shouldn't really be considered a good player because it's just abusing a unit! Genius! Destiny is such a dirty player. I don't often call people retarded, but you are coming awfully close.
Nowhere in my post did i reference Destiny's ability; i did not even mention his name. I didn't call him dirty, nor did i imply anything of the sort. I understand hearing negative words when you are a fanboy can spin you into a frenzy, but please do not exaggerate too much <--- passive aggressive smiley.
I actually enjoy watching Destiny for his ingenuity and innovation - i just didn't like this particular strategy; massing spines and mutas is definitely not solid; it relies on almost perfect control which Destiny managed this game. He played it fantastically, that doesn't mean the strategy isn't sub-optimal.
edit: eugh that came out more aggressive than intended; sorry but i hope you still get what i was trying to say
|
On February 10 2012 12:33 bkrow wrote: I actually enjoy watching Destiny for his ingenuity and innovation - i just didn't like this particular strategy; massing spines and mutas is definitely not solid; it relies on almost perfect control which Destiny managed this game. He played it fantastically, that doesn't mean the strategy isn't sub-optimal.
Welcome to the 2012 metagame...
There are probably more muta spine ling players on korean ladder than fast third roach expands nowadays. It is completely solid and more than tried/tested.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On February 10 2012 12:25 SC2NeCro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:24 lichter wrote:On February 10 2012 12:15 SC2NeCro wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 MisterFred wrote: Flo gets her shot. Hell, if she just makes the game close it's a major PR win. Yeah who cares about competitive matches. It's all 'bout the PR! Quantic have mentioned many times before that they want a team that is entertaining and has personality, competitiveness is just one of the requirements. Thanks for the heads up. I'll stop wasting my time with watching any Quantic player from now. Except NaNiWa because he's clearly not about that.
Why is that a bad thing though? Personality makes the game more fun to watch. It doesn't mean Quantic don't care about being competitive, it only means that they additionally want their players to be interesting or fan favorites.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On February 10 2012 12:30 YoiChiBow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:24 lichter wrote:On February 10 2012 12:15 SC2NeCro wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 MisterFred wrote: Flo gets her shot. Hell, if she just makes the game close it's a major PR win. Yeah who cares about competitive matches. It's all 'bout the PR! Quantic have mentioned many times before that they want a team that is entertaining and has personality, competitiveness is just one of the requirements. No that's not true at all... Competition takes precedence over everything -_-.
Well I didn't say competitiveness is below the other two, just that to make a good team (from a business standpoint as well, take note) competitiveness alone won't suffice.
|
On February 10 2012 12:33 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:29 Jell wrote:On February 10 2012 12:23 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:16 Shebuha wrote:On February 10 2012 12:14 bkrow wrote:On February 10 2012 12:11 Shellshock1122 wrote: Nice we get to see Flo. Solid win Destiny Rofl? Mass mutas and spines = solid win. Interesting. Yeah, you have to play certain play styles to get a solid win. Some strategies just don't earn solid wins and are undeserving of recognition. ... Rolf? You are misunderstanding i think; it was a win. Win is a win - obviously. But i took issue with the word "solid", because there is nothing solid about massing a single unit. Yes, of course! So it isn't a solid win because he built a lot of mutas! I guess I should take that into account, every player who wins doing muta/spine crawler, shouldn't really be considered a good player because it's just abusing a unit! Genius! Destiny is such a dirty player. I don't often call people retarded, but you are coming awfully close. Nowhere in my post did i reference Destiny's ability; i did not even mention his name. I didn't call him dirty, nor did i imply anything of the sort. I understand hearing negative words when you are a fanboy can spin you into a frenzy, but please do not exaggerate too much <--- passive aggressive smiley. I actually enjoy watching Destiny for his ingenuity and innovation - i just didn't like this particular strategy; massing spines and mutas is definitely not solid; it relies on almost perfect control which Destiny managed this game. He played it fantastically, that doesn't mean the strategy isn't sub-optimal. edit: eugh that came out more aggressive than intended; sorry but i hope you still get what i was trying to say
I just don't understand this, how can you say a 30 minute game victory isn't solid. You even say the strategy employed requires perfect control, this just sounds like what any other top tier player would do, have confidence on their control, and use the strategy they deem would most probably give them the win. If this isn't a solid win, I don't know what you would call one. Maybe the 1-1-1?
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
sick win for destiny, nice job dude <3
|
People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see).
Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity:
What is Protoss supposed to do against that?
I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in.
I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them?
Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that.
I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks!
|
On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks!
Storms. Like... a Parting amount of them. No zerg will split his muta ball up, so you just storm them wherever you can. Also note that you can't go mutas like that on every map, you need lots of dead space to be able to flee from blink stalkers.
|
I take back my statements on Quantic. Sorry guys. I know the real deal now.
|
Winning is the best form of exposure there is. Win, and publicity will come to you as a bonus, good or bad, wanted or unwanted. That's just how it is.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks!
Did you watch Nestea vs Genius yesterday? It made me cry Ultra-sized Zerg tears ;_;
|
On February 10 2012 12:58 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks! Storms. Like... a Parting amount of them. No zerg will split his muta ball up, so you just storm them wherever you can. Also note that you can't go mutas like that on every map, you need lots of dead space to be able to flee from blink stalkers. I feel like to get to the point where you have a enough storms for that to be true, you need to have the economy, and Mutalisks shut down expansions.
That's another thing I've realized about that sort of strategy, it seemed even more effective on Tal'Darim Altar. I think it's great to tailor certain strategies for specific maps, but if a strategy is so good on a map where it becomes almost impossible to beat, then I think there may be a problem. It seemed that the short distance form main to third on Tal'Darim Altar made it almost impossible (I know that's a different game then the Destiny v Choya game, but the game I'm thinking about was Destiny vs MaNa in IPL TAC 2 and it pertains to the discussion).
|
On February 10 2012 12:14 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:11 Shellshock1122 wrote: Nice we get to see Flo. Solid win Destiny Rofl? Mass mutas and spines = solid win. Interesting. awwww someone hates destiny T.T
|
On February 10 2012 13:04 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2012 12:58 Zdrastochye wrote:On February 10 2012 12:53 The Final Boss wrote:People are continuously arguing "Mutalisks take no skillz!!!" or "Mutalisks are sooo Gosu!!" I'll be honest, I play Terran. I have very little insight into the PvZ/ZvP metagame, but I know a lot of Protoss players complain about Mutalisks being "OP." After watching the game Destiny played and the game Destiny played vs MaNa (basically the same strat, for those of you who didn't see). Now I want to ask a question, if anybody has a deep knowledge of the PvZ metagame I'd be really interested in hearing your response, but just out of curiosity: What is Protoss supposed to do against that?I know that Muta play can die to aggressive Protoss players, but I don't see anyway that that Muta ball can die unless Destiny makes a major miss-micro and flies them through a Storm or Blink Stalkers. And, if the Protoss cannot kill those Mutalisks, then suddenly they can't ever move out of their base without that attack becoming an all-in. I'm sure that there are a plethora of timings, cheeses, and all-ins that counter Mutalisk play, but is there any way for a Protoss to win a game against a Zerg who goes Mutalisk without that Zerg making a major mistake? Destiny is a good player, but I know for a fact that he is not at the mechanical level of MaNa or Choya, so how is it that he can win such convincing games against them? Again, these are merely my observations from having watched some PvZs. Generally, whenever Protoss players cry imba I just laugh because deep down we all know that PvT is a broken match-up but I actually fail to see the proper response to that. I know that I personally am sometimes found in a situation in TvZ where if I attack, I have to win, because I'm losing my entire base. So I'd be really interested to hear from any Zergs or Protoss players who know how to beat this Muta ball without doing some cheesy one or two base build and without the Zerg having a major micro error. Thanks! Storms. Like... a Parting amount of them. No zerg will split his muta ball up, so you just storm them wherever you can. Also note that you can't go mutas like that on every map, you need lots of dead space to be able to flee from blink stalkers. I feel like to get to the point where you have a enough storms for that to be true, you need to have the economy, and Mutalisks shut down expansions. That's another thing I've realized about that sort of strategy, it seemed even more effective on Tal'Darim Altar. I think it's great to tailor certain strategies for specific maps, but if a strategy is so good on a map where it becomes almost impossible to beat, then I think there may be a problem. It seemed that the short distance form main to third on Tal'Darim Altar made it almost impossible (I know that's a different game then the Destiny v Choya game, but the game I'm thinking about was Destiny vs MaNa in IPL TAC 2 and it pertains to the discussion).
It's the same way that we see Protoss keeping hts in their bases to shut down mid game drop play in PvT with feedbacks, you can do the same thing vs Z without having to bounce an army between three bases. Sure you'll lose the ht if the Z is committed to doing damage with that poke, but if he keeps eating storms at the expense of taking out a couple ht and a pylon or so, he'll eventually have a bunch of red mutas.
|
|
|
|