Contrary to popular belief Stephano is not from the States, any mindless spam asserting otherwise after this time (19:48 KST/ 5:48 AM EST/ 10:48 GMT) will meet a moderator response. We have enough confusing spam posting in LR threads these days. Lets try to keep the love for everyone's favourite French zerg reasonable.
And as always: - No player bashing. - No caster bashing. - No balance whining.
On December 13 2011 03:32 windsupernova wrote: Sad that every single time a foreigner plays we have to get a banner due to all the crap posts.
On December 13 2011 03:29 Tachion wrote: I've pretty much lost all faith in these mini-tournaments. Arena of legends and team ace invitational had awful games as well. The games are so close together, and bigger Bo1 group stages just makes for glorified ladder games since they can't spend time to properly prepare for each game.
How do they not have time to prepare? They know their opponent and Map with tons of time to prepare.
Polt was just introduced to the tourny like 2 days ago? MMA a week? How long have the brackets/maps been finalized for? And they only get 1-2 days in-between to prepare for the next round.
Just curious, but do you also not watch MLG/NASL/IEM/Dreamhack?
Those weekend tournaments all give very little time to prepare. This is somewhere in between.
All of them produce awesome games, but of slightly different types--the shorter the time period, the fewer awesome snipe/etc builds we see. But they're all full of good games.
These are the best players in the entire world. That's the whole point of the tournament, and the games don't reflect it. MLG/NASL/IEM/Dreamhack are all far sub-par compared to the games you get from the GSL when players have over a week to prepare to a BoX series against one another.
I've seen great ladder games and bad ladder games
I've seen great GSL matches and not so great (like the MVP vs Nestea in GSL August)
I've seen more bad GSL finals than good ones
I've heard people stating that when people have long times to prepare for games, it makes for uninteresting games (their debate on whey GSL finals are usually bad). I've also heard people counter argument that with TSL finals.
the GSL finals are always terrible cause whoever gets to the finals had already taken out his competition
except for, you know, the most recent GSL finals that is arguably the best SC2 series we've had yet.
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
On December 13 2011 04:22 Azzur wrote: I was cheering for Stephano and was hoping that he would've qualified for the next round (but I'm not a fanboy though). When he played that critical set against MC, I was a bit shocked when Khaldor mentioned on stream that Stephano was going to do some kind of all-in. Shocked in the sense that Dual Sight is a good map for Zerg against Protoss. I know people are going to defend his decision based on the wide-open natural, but I rather think that since he's confident in the ZvP, he shouldn've gone for a regular game. I think that someone from his team should've sat down with him and discussed the strategy for each map.
Even then, I thought he could've held the 2-base timing from MC. MC's initial attack was deflected but Stephano had the red-mists in front of his eyes and decided to engage with his roach army in the middle of the map - which cost him his army. After that, MC was able to score the win with a push. Stephano had a 3-base-to-2 advantage and should've just defended instead.
Stephamo played very well today. It was tough for him. It was almost impossible for him to find someone as good as Mvp to practice and he lost to Mvp. About the game against Mc, he had a good map. But again, it is hard for him to find someone as good as Mc to practice with. On the other hand, Mc can easily find someone as good as Stephano to practice with, such as Curious.
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
you can use that to describe what Mvp did to Hero.
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
you can use that to describe what Mvp did to Hero.
ya but see MVP WON
MC didnt win
erego, MVP made the right choice and MC made the wrong choice and since the only damage MC managed to do was kill a bunker and a few marines it was completely the wrong choice
On December 13 2011 02:48 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:41 Forikorder wrote:
players who got "figured out" MC Fruitdealer Rain BitByBit MKP Rainbow
all those players were spectacular, all got figured out, all dropped off the face of the eart to varying degrees
MKP tore through GSL season 2 then quickly dropped Rainbow and fruitdealer looked amazing during season one then they quickly droppped people were calling MC the best palyer ever when he won his second title now hes more joked about then revered and known as a very unstable player who somethimes gives some good results
there are tons of players if you look for them who look amazing the first time we see them then there nothing, like the 1/1/1 build and the slayers hellion push everyone said they were unstoppable when we first saw them now there nothing special
How exactly did MC get figured out? His timings? All timings get figured out. It is more like Protoss got figured out. Before, no one knew how imbalance the game was and how shit the race was. MC simply won with a disadvantage twice. Right now Protoss still lacks a lot of things to be as complete as Terran or Zerg.
I thought the "OMG Protoss UP! Sad Zealot" posts were over after recent tournament results.. Guess not...
has nothing to do with balance, from a design standpoint both zerg and protoss simply lack the flexibility that terran has
I hate when people say this. Do you even know what that means? Please elaborate because 95% of people who complain that "terran is flexible" just throw that phrase around with little or no explanation behind their bold statements
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
you can use that to describe what Mvp did to Hero.
I hope you're joking. The reason MC gets a lot of crap is because even back in his glory days that's all he relied on, all in/timing attacks and good micro. Do you really think MVP is an inconsistent player who will never be great...?
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
bad all ins that win alot. hes playing for money, so i doubt he cares about entertaining whiners. also, he might not be consistently at HIS best, but hes pretty consistent in being ranked very highly. of course, it must be because hes so bad noone has any idea how to deal with him, and not that he has any skill, because that would be unthinkable. seriously, being a bad loser when your not even the one who lost is silly, and you should stop it. if stephano whined as much as you, he would be considered really BM, and he would actually have a reason
I don't understand why everybody is so surprised by hero losing. I didn't expect him to lose 4 - 0 but i never thought he would make it out of his group.
Even when he was in OGS, he was never a top tier protoss, with OGS preferring to pick Huk and MC over him in clutch situations. He has done well in foreigner tournaments i must admit, but in dreamhack winter, he lost to DRG 2 - 0 and managed to avoid DRG in the final thanks to puma. Couple all these travelling with his actual skill level and it will not be surprising to see him bomb out of his group.
Yeah MC is a great player. Inconsistent perhaps, but all players have to add in all-ins in their game. MC sometimes overdoes it but thats better than say TOP who you know will never all in all the time. DRG used to do just the same z v t build every game and got exploited in the GSL thanks to that. Part of why MC is so good is that hes willing to macro it up or all in anytime. MC just picked the wrong choice against the master of every build + reactionary play.
On December 13 2011 02:48 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:41 Forikorder wrote:
players who got "figured out" MC Fruitdealer Rain BitByBit MKP Rainbow
all those players were spectacular, all got figured out, all dropped off the face of the eart to varying degrees
MKP tore through GSL season 2 then quickly dropped Rainbow and fruitdealer looked amazing during season one then they quickly droppped people were calling MC the best palyer ever when he won his second title now hes more joked about then revered and known as a very unstable player who somethimes gives some good results
there are tons of players if you look for them who look amazing the first time we see them then there nothing, like the 1/1/1 build and the slayers hellion push everyone said they were unstoppable when we first saw them now there nothing special
How exactly did MC get figured out? His timings? All timings get figured out. It is more like Protoss got figured out. Before, no one knew how imbalance the game was and how shit the race was. MC simply won with a disadvantage twice. Right now Protoss still lacks a lot of things to be as complete as Terran or Zerg.
I thought the "OMG Protoss UP! Sad Zealot" posts were over after recent tournament results.. Guess not...
has nothing to do with balance, from a design standpoint both zerg and protoss simply lack the flexibility that terran has
I hate when people say this. Do you even know what that means? Please elaborate because 95% of people who complain that "terran is flexible" just throw that phrase around with little or no explanation behind their bold statements
Well, Terran can build any random building anywhere they want on the map, alone. None of the other races can do that. Protoss need pylons and Zerg need creep. Flexible!
(I'm just kidding--I didn't make the original statement and won't defend it.)
On December 13 2011 04:22 Azzur wrote: I was cheering for Stephano and was hoping that he would've qualified for the next round (but I'm not a fanboy though). When he played that critical set against MC, I was a bit shocked when Khaldor mentioned on stream that Stephano was going to do some kind of all-in. Shocked in the sense that Dual Sight is a good map for Zerg against Protoss. I know people are going to defend his decision based on the wide-open natural, but I rather think that since he's confident in the ZvP, he shouldn've gone for a regular game. I think that someone from his team should've sat down with him and discussed the strategy for each map.
Even then, I thought he could've held the 2-base timing from MC. MC's initial attack was deflected but Stephano had the red-mists in front of his eyes and decided to engage with his roach army in the middle of the map - which cost him his army. After that, MC was able to score the win with a push. Stephano had a 3-base-to-2 advantage and should've just defended instead.
Stephamo played very well today. It was tough for him. It was almost impossible for him to find someone as good as Mvp to practice and he lost to Mvp. About the game against Mc, he had a good map. But again, it is hard for him to find someone as good as Mc to practice with. On the other hand, Mc can easily find someone as good as Stephano to practice with, such as Curious.
Well, he already had scored a win against Hero (using standard play) and you can argue that Dual Sight is even more Zerg favoured, so he really should've been confident about his standard game. Stephano's lack of experience in big-stage matches really cost him here, for he should've gone with his strongest game in a good map rather than gamble with an all-in. This experience is going to prove very valuable, but will he have another opportunity?
However, this kind of decision making isn't really confined to him - I recall the NASL finals in set5 and set6. In set5, Hero does a solid play against a gimmicky 2-rax by Puma and wins easily. In set6, we see Hero try a gimmicky proxy stargate when in reality, standard play would've served him much better.
On December 13 2011 04:29 Forikorder wrote: right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
By my reckoning, winning 2 GSLs makes you great. He's not the best in the world, but he's still fucking great.
At MLG Providence, MVP played all macro games against MC for the first set. MC won. In the second set, MVP played 2 Marine/Tank all-ins off of 1 base (expanded after in one game). MVP won.
MC probably was scared to play a macro game, but not because of the opponent: because of the map. PvT on Belshir is atrocious. You cannot take a 3rd if your opponent is Code S material, let alone the best Terran in the world.
There was no question that MC would go for an all-in. The only parts it is reasonable to criticise him for are the type of all-in and the execution.
Type of all-in - take your pick. MC could have done a 6gate, or a standard 4gate. I think personally that a 6gate would have done better than this one, especially with MC's crazy Forcefield skill.
Execution - it was done pretty well. The main flaw was the scout from MVP, which I would put down to MVP's timing being impeccable rather than MC being bad. He scouted just while the Warp Gates were morphing and MC was pushing out with a couple of Stalkers so that MC could not warp in a unit to defend fast enough.
It's always interesting how much MC gets criticised for all-inish play in PvT, when MVP's successful TvP almost always revolves around early Marine/Tank pushes/all-ins, or 2port Banshee (vs Oz). MC has a history of getting cheesed himself. Sure, he all-ins. But he is no all-inish scrub like InCa or Rain in PvT. He is the Protoss President, and he's out for blood.
On December 13 2011 04:22 Azzur wrote: I was cheering for Stephano and was hoping that he would've qualified for the next round (but I'm not a fanboy though). When he played that critical set against MC, I was a bit shocked when Khaldor mentioned on stream that Stephano was going to do some kind of all-in. Shocked in the sense that Dual Sight is a good map for Zerg against Protoss. I know people are going to defend his decision based on the wide-open natural, but I rather think that since he's confident in the ZvP, he shouldn've gone for a regular game. I think that someone from his team should've sat down with him and discussed the strategy for each map.
Even then, I thought he could've held the 2-base timing from MC. MC's initial attack was deflected but Stephano had the red-mists in front of his eyes and decided to engage with his roach army in the middle of the map - which cost him his army. After that, MC was able to score the win with a push. Stephano had a 3-base-to-2 advantage and should've just defended instead.
Stephamo played very well today. It was tough for him. It was almost impossible for him to find someone as good as Mvp to practice and he lost to Mvp. About the game against Mc, he had a good map. But again, it is hard for him to find someone as good as Mc to practice with. On the other hand, Mc can easily find someone as good as Stephano to practice with, such as Curious.
Well, he already had scored a win against Hero (using standard play) and you can argue that Dual Sight is even more Zerg favoured, so he really should've been confident about his standard game. Stephano's lack of experience in big-stage matches really cost him here, for he should've gone with his strongest game in a good map rather than gamble with an all-in. This experience is going to prove very valuable, but will he have another opportunity?
Dual Sight might be a 'zerg-favoured' map when you are in TL but that's a map he almost never play on. So rather tahn stage fright, it was map inexperience.
All this anti-protoss/MC bias is fucking disgusting. It would be one thing if he all ined every game and went 4-0 but he went 2-2 and he will occasionally all in and his all ins will occasionally fail. Can everyone stop pissing themselves in rage already?
I honestly didn't think DRG would come out first in that group, but then again it is so difficult to predict how people will do when it is a bunch of strong players doing bo1. No shame in HerO going 0-4 imo.
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
bad all ins that win alot. hes playing for money, so i doubt he cares about entertaining whiners. also, he might not be consistently at HIS best, but hes pretty consistent in being ranked very highly. of course, it must be because hes so bad noone has any idea how to deal with him, and not that he has any skill, because that would be unthinkable. seriously, being a bad loser when your not even the one who lost is silly, and you should stop it. if stephano whined as much as you, he would be considered really BM, and he would actually have a reason
im not wining i dont care if MC continues to all-in or not in fact id prefer it becuase i dont like him and id prefer he gets stuck in medicraty till he retires
and if he was as good as you say he is, then how come he hasnt won a single event in months? his last win was his last GSL win when his all-ins could still be considered effective, ever since he hasnt won anything even the foreigner tournaments
On December 13 2011 04:22 Azzur wrote: I was cheering for Stephano and was hoping that he would've qualified for the next round (but I'm not a fanboy though). When he played that critical set against MC, I was a bit shocked when Khaldor mentioned on stream that Stephano was going to do some kind of all-in. Shocked in the sense that Dual Sight is a good map for Zerg against Protoss. I know people are going to defend his decision based on the wide-open natural, but I rather think that since he's confident in the ZvP, he shouldn've gone for a regular game. I think that someone from his team should've sat down with him and discussed the strategy for each map.
Even then, I thought he could've held the 2-base timing from MC. MC's initial attack was deflected but Stephano had the red-mists in front of his eyes and decided to engage with his roach army in the middle of the map - which cost him his army. After that, MC was able to score the win with a push. Stephano had a 3-base-to-2 advantage and should've just defended instead.
Stephamo played very well today. It was tough for him. It was almost impossible for him to find someone as good as Mvp to practice and he lost to Mvp. About the game against Mc, he had a good map. But again, it is hard for him to find someone as good as Mc to practice with. On the other hand, Mc can easily find someone as good as Stephano to practice with, such as Curious.
Well, he already had scored a win against Hero (using standard play) and you can argue that Dual Sight is even more Zerg favoured, so he really should've been confident about his standard game. Stephano's lack of experience in big-stage matches really cost him here, for he should've gone with his strongest game in a good map rather than gamble with an all-in. This experience is going to prove very valuable, but will he have another opportunity?
It's certainly possible that maybe due to his experiences in the teamhouse and the ladder he wasn't confident in a macro game against MC. Especially since MC said in his interview he's alot more confident in PvZ, maybe it really was his best shot.
On December 13 2011 03:02 power-overwhelming wrote:
On December 13 2011 02:56 Forikorder wrote:
MC does it becuase hes terrible and cant win macro games
MVP didnt do anything stupid enough that would get killed by MCs 4gate blink stalker push yet MC was planning to do it from the probe split
Wait... I know you must be a troll or just deprived of logic, but I'll bit.
MC just beaten Bomber in a macro game. Out of every korean progamer, MC has been all-inned the most, especially by Terrans.
When you're hating on someone at least have something to back it up. For instance, MVP starts out his interviews with excuses such as "bad condition, jet lagged, lack of sleep etc". MC draws the worst maps and still advances and you don't see his interview full of map qq.
and what does that have to do at all with MC choosing from the second the map started to do a terrible all-in that anyone could tell wouldnt work against someone as good as MVP?
I remember not long ago Mc 6 gate all-in Mvp and mvp could not stop it even with 5 bunkers. In fact, Mc did show he can outplay Mvp in a macro game. Mvp is the one does not want to play macro game against Mc.
yet MC does a terrible 4 gate all-in....
Sigh... you're so blind I don't even know if you watch starcraft.
All-ins aren't random, you don't just do it against someone because he's better/worse/whatever. You plan an all-in when you think the map and opponent are suitable for that all-in. In this case, considering maps, MC's best shot was the early game timing. MVP scouted well and could hold it, doesn't mean it was a bad decision.
All-in =/= bad play.
MC is a great player, most likely still best protoss around. If you think he's bad you haven't watched enough of his games. You might not like his style, but that's a completely different story.
right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
you can use that to describe what Mvp did to Hero.
ya but see MVP WON
MC didnt win
erego, MVP made the right choice and MC made the wrong choice and since the only damage MC managed to do was kill a bunker and a few marines it was completely the wrong choice
It shouldn't just be able who wins or loses. Fine you can't win a macro game on this map against MVP so you all in whatever. My problems with it are that 1) He lets an scv scout his all in 2) He loses his observer (twice), which really hurts the blink stalker play Not that he would have won if those things didn't happen since it seemed like MVP was expecting an all in anyway, but those are the kind of things people should be critical on him for, not just that he did an all in.
On December 13 2011 04:29 Forikorder wrote: right MC was too scared to try and paly a macro game and did a bad all-in and lost becuase hes an inconsitant player wholl never be great
By my reckoning, winning 2 GSLs makes you great. He's not the best in the world, but he's still fucking great.
At MLG Providence, MVP played all macro games against MC for the first set. MC won. In the second set, MVP played 2 Marine/Tank all-ins off of 1 base (expanded after in one game). MVP won.
MC probably was scared to play a macro game, but not because of the opponent: because of the map. PvT on Belshir is atrocious. You cannot take a 3rd if your opponent is Code S material, let alone the best Terran in the world.
There was no question that MC would go for an all-in. The only parts it is reasonable to criticise him for are the type of all-in and the execution.
Type of all-in - take your pick. MC could have done a 6gate, or a standard 4gate. I think personally that a 6gate would have done better than this one, especially with MC's crazy Forcefield skill.
Execution - it was done pretty well. The main flaw was the scout from MVP, which I would put down to MVP's timing being impeccable rather than MC being bad. He scouted just while the Warp Gates were morphing and MC was pushing out with a couple of Stalkers so that MC could not warp in a unit to defend fast enough.
It's always interesting how much MC gets criticised for all-inish play in PvT, when MVP's successful TvP almost always revolves around early Marine/Tank pushes/all-ins, or 2port Banshee (vs Oz). MC has a history of getting cheesed himself. Sure, he all-ins. But he is no all-inish scrub like InCa or Rain in PvT. He is the Protoss President, and he's out for blood.
From what I remember MC won by using all ins against MVP in the first set, but I'd have to rewatch the games to remember
EPT
