EPTOn December 05 2011 22:38 Alric wrote:
Ok fair enough. I did not neglect armour or hp, but I did neglect charge up time for the void ray. (I neglected it for simplicity not to make the corruptor sound worse.) In a 2 corruptor vs 1 void ray, assuming 0/0 and taking into account charge-up, time of death of first corruptor and assuming no corruption, then 1 corruptor will survive with ~70 hp. (Disclaimer: worked this out on paper not map editor.) So the charge-up makes a bigger difference than I thought and than my earlier post suggested. The point remains that corruptors are supply-ineffective against void rays, since you need to outnumber them 2:1 whilst voids/corruptor supply ratio is 1.5:1. (With corruption it would be even closer, but the point remains.) Good cop though; 2:1 is much better than 4:1, and that's my mistake.
As for the point about fungals - I ignored fungals because I was considering voids vs. corruptors in isolation, since people were claiming corruptors hard counter voids or something. If you allow that zergs can have infestors, then you have to allow that the Protoss can have blink stalkers and high templars. At which point micro becomes much more of a factor, so you can't just theory craft, but certainly you can't just chain fungal your way to victory.
And yeah your point about P never winning against Zerg with pure air is sort-of fair (though not quite true: Genius won a game recently with such a strategy in a major tournament, but I forget which one or against whom he was playing. It involved carriers too and not just voids). Again I wasn't imagining a mass corruptor/mass void ray army in reality; in reality there would be stalker, collosi, high templar, infestors, broodlords, roaches, etc. My point was that corruptors do not render voids useless in a late game composition since voids are supply effective against corruptors, and they are of course excellent against broods. If the zerg has corruptors to deal with colossus/mothership then voids are actually good to get since not only will they be good against the corruptors and broods but they will also shield the colossus and mothership from damage.
In fact void rays should be mixed into the late game composition in general, since although they cost a lot they are really supply effective (which is of course more important when you're maxed and have lots of money banked). They really add to the DPS of the Protoss death ball, and don't just automatically lose to air play like colossus.
Edit: ok I seem to have screwed up the hydra calculation as well. Mea culpa; I should learn to map editor than just theory crafting while drunk. I concede defeat.
Ok fair enough. I did not neglect armour or hp, but I did neglect charge up time for the void ray. (I neglected it for simplicity not to make the corruptor sound worse.) In a 2 corruptor vs 1 void ray, assuming 0/0 and taking into account charge-up, time of death of first corruptor and assuming no corruption, then 1 corruptor will survive with ~70 hp. (Disclaimer: worked this out on paper not map editor.) So the charge-up makes a bigger difference than I thought and than my earlier post suggested. The point remains that corruptors are supply-ineffective against void rays, since you need to outnumber them 2:1 whilst voids/corruptor supply ratio is 1.5:1. (With corruption it would be even closer, but the point remains.) Good cop though; 2:1 is much better than 4:1, and that's my mistake.
As for the point about fungals - I ignored fungals because I was considering voids vs. corruptors in isolation, since people were claiming corruptors hard counter voids or something. If you allow that zergs can have infestors, then you have to allow that the Protoss can have blink stalkers and high templars. At which point micro becomes much more of a factor, so you can't just theory craft, but certainly you can't just chain fungal your way to victory.
And yeah your point about P never winning against Zerg with pure air is sort-of fair (though not quite true: Genius won a game recently with such a strategy in a major tournament, but I forget which one or against whom he was playing. It involved carriers too and not just voids). Again I wasn't imagining a mass corruptor/mass void ray army in reality; in reality there would be stalker, collosi, high templar, infestors, broodlords, roaches, etc. My point was that corruptors do not render voids useless in a late game composition since voids are supply effective against corruptors, and they are of course excellent against broods. If the zerg has corruptors to deal with colossus/mothership then voids are actually good to get since not only will they be good against the corruptors and broods but they will also shield the colossus and mothership from damage.
In fact void rays should be mixed into the late game composition in general, since although they cost a lot they are really supply effective (which is of course more important when you're maxed and have lots of money banked). They really add to the DPS of the Protoss death ball, and don't just automatically lose to air play like colossus.
Edit: ok I seem to have screwed up the hydra calculation as well. Mea culpa; I should learn to map editor than just theory crafting while drunk. I concede defeat.
yeah well don't take it too hard since if your point was to prove that corruptors don't render voids useless that is of course true. but they do work as a not-so-supply, but decent cost-effective counter, even better if greater spire/colossus are on the field cuz then they don't become useless after killing the voids.
i love voids but i think the cruncher style void ray colossus deathball is not really working anymore, unless you can make a massive switch with 3-4 stargates, cuz late game zerg will always have a lot of fungal which does 3x the damage as it did in tsl3, you can recreate gateway units infinity times faster, also the popular mass muta style counters it too, plus every zerg learned to deal with that after figting it 1000 times. imo voids only work as early harass or part of a rush or something, not really in late game amassed.
