On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
Are you factoring the 2 starting armor of the corrupters? I agree that they are terrible, but they don't seem quite that terrible.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
Are you factoring the 2 starting armor of the corrupters? I agree that they are terrible, but they don't seem quite that terrible.
Yes.
Are you factoring in corruption? and assuming the charge dps the whole time is retarded. Edit: oh I see it now my bad, theorycrafting is going to be useless, if you scout a massive amount of void rays you just tech switch into hydras/ or and infestors and rape them. voids are not very replaceable.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
Are you factoring the 2 starting armor of the corrupters? I agree that they are terrible, but they don't seem quite that terrible.
Yes.
Are you factoring in corruption? and assuming the charge dps the whole time is retarded.
Yea he included corruption in the paragraph. Dps goes from 7.4 to 8.9 apparently. Corrupters are very low damage against non massive.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
I think Fungal is pretty good Anti-air
Voidray switches are just really expensive and you can get "outswarmed" by corrupters. I still agree that zerg aa is kinda meh though but the problem is the nature of zerg. If zerg had a really good aa unit airplay would be useless against zerg since they could mass produce good aa instantly. The corruptor is bad but you can produce 10 at a time if you see air.
Sure I agree with the fungal comment. Considered in isolated infestors hard counter void rays since they can endlessly fungal them whilst remaining outside of range. But in an actual protoss death ball the voids will be supported by colossus and high templar, so whilst fungal still has a use it is by no means a complete answer.
As for the outswarming, the protoss can gradually build up the voids from 2 (or even 3 stargates) which actually happens quite quickly with chronoboost. The zerg's not going to just make ~20 corruptors unless he already sees a big number of void rays at which point there will already be enough void rays. Unless perhaps the zerg scouts the triple stargates and goes mass corruptor, but then it's easy enough to stop void ray production, focus on blink stalkers and render the corruptor army usless. Corruptors can't even land sadly.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
On December 05 2011 20:17 Black Gun wrote: SDJFGIOSENRGILSDJGSDFJBGSBLJK
f*** this shit. words cant describe how angry this game made me. i absolutely hate mc`s playstyle. hopefully this one build abuser will get eliminated in the next round/next season. -.-
why are you angry? because terran cheese failed to kill a toss?
Haha that looks like he was describing Puma's t v p ....
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
On December 05 2011 20:19 poorcloud wrote: This is the strength of the immortal bust. Don't understand why more protosses don't do this.
Terran basically has to gamble to counter it, which means getting more marines + ghosts, all which die to colossus easily. Also delays starport tech so often.
I was a bit surprised that puma in the nasl final going ghosts playing early often and then when I watched this game I think it makes sense. Especially considered that Mc is one of puma's practice partners.
On December 05 2011 20:13 Pandemona wrote: Anyone else dislike Crossfire btw? Got to be the worst map in the map pool for me (in gsl map pool) it never seems to be good games, always wins because of terrain (note TERRAIN not terran) to many small choke points for me
that and dual sight. both maps need to go
What's wrong with Dual Sight? Bel'Shir Beach is far worse.
It seems like everyone on TL believes that early game rushes shouldn't be part of the game.
They never saw MMA vs MVP on that map eh? And countless other great "macro" games. Don't think the map is really a "rush" map.
That map is bad for PvT for sure. Early game it is too good for terran. But late game it is too good for toss.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
so i tested it just for you:
double amount of corruptors always beat void rays. 4 corruptors take out 2 void rays with 3 corruptors left over if the p doesn't focus fire, 10 corruptor takes out 5 rays with 6 corruptors left even upgrades of course
also same amount of corruptors demolish rays with infestor support- 6 corruptors kill 6 rays with chain fungals with 3 corruptors left (i wasn't even using corruption)
you're trying to make it sound worse than it really is, corruptors have 2 armor and 200 health, if you'd need 3 corruptors for each void, you'd basically have an 600 hp unit with 2 armor vs a 250 hp unit that has no armor, both dealing same damage which is not even obviously. corruptors are much much beefier per cost than voids, also u can pop 10 corruptors at once while it takes a long time to get out 10 voids.
i don't even remember a game where toss beat zerg with mass air play. maybe a 2 stargate rush but that's not mass air that a cheesy build that's dependent on z not scouting it or it fails instantly. ok stargate play with some voids and phoenixes is standard but zergs can deal with it more than fine. late game fungal+any kind of z anti air is more cost effective and damaging than any protoss air unit.
On December 05 2011 20:17 Black Gun wrote: SDJFGIOSENRGILSDJGSDFJBGSBLJK
f*** this shit. words cant describe how angry this game made me. i absolutely hate mc`s playstyle. hopefully this one build abuser will get eliminated in the next round/next season. -.-
Uh.. I don't see how doing a build that would win you the game is a bad thing. And aren't you forgetting that Bomber opened the second game with a proxy rax?
its abuse when you do the same build over and over and over and over, like mc with his 6gate-ish all-ins. it maddens me how he can play so incredibly greedy, getting punished hard, barely surviving and then some few minutes later he comes back with an attack against which bomber had no chance of defending unless he had already started teching to the correct thing several minutes beforehand.
and yes, I did indeed not see game 1, I just tuned in. and guess what I see: MC doing a 6gate all-in. surprise surprise.
...it wasn't a 6-gate all in....
thats why I said "6 gate-ish": an all-in attack on 2 base with lots of sentries to forcefield off the bunkers. doesnt really matter if its 6 gates or 5 gates and 1 robo, the principle of the attack remains the same.
and please also note that I am not balance whining. Im not saying terran cant hold these because they can. but its still astonishing to me that bomber would have had to start teching to the exact thing he needs right after his push failed to have a chance of holding this attack that might or might not come several minutes later. its not unfair or imbalanced, but its dicey and dull in my eyes.
I understand I understand other toss would probably not be able to kill bomber there. But when Mc is in form, toss is imba ... Notice that how many times blizz had to nerf toss because of Mc' play....
On December 05 2011 20:32 spacemonkeyy wrote: MC attracts so much hate, his macro style is fine he knows how to hit timings; he is greedy. As long as it is not coin flip he can do what he likes IMO. I rarely see MC blind all in...
He is like the opposite of idra- unpredictable and sometimes its hard to know when his attack is going to come which forces people to be honest.
Definitely agree, imo MC is the july of protoss
wow well said But he is not as big as July tho he needs to win some more to get as big as July you know
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
i tested this for you too, double amount of hydras demolish voids, while costing 50 minerals less. 30-50% of the hydras is left depending on focus firing,even upgrades (iirc voids cost 3 supply per unit so they are more supply effective though)
also, double amount of hydras with 1-2 fungals thrown in kill voids with about 90% of the hydras left
conclusion: use fungal
conclusion no.2: don't theorycraft about units and their numbers, go and test stuff for real information.
On December 05 2011 20:32 spacemonkeyy wrote: MC attracts so much hate, his macro style is fine he knows how to hit timings; he is greedy. As long as it is not coin flip he can do what he likes IMO. I rarely see MC blind all in...
He is like the opposite of idra- unpredictable and sometimes its hard to know when his attack is going to come which forces people to be honest.
Definitely agree, imo MC is the july of protoss
wow well said But he is not as big as July tho he needs to win some more to get as big as July you know
yeah he needs the money to have several more bbqs to be as big as july
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
Your calculations aren't accurate at all. You state that you'll need more than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras, but the scenarios seem to be a succession of 1v1s, which is not what happens. 2 hydras will have 29 dps. The void ray, while 2 hydras are alive, will die in 8.6 seconds. If you actually have 2 hydras fight 1 void ray (2 hydras cost fairly significantly less than 1 void ray), the void ray will die just after the first hydra dies. That is very efficient.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
i tested this for you too, double amount of hydras demolish voids, while costing 50 minerals less. 30-50% of the hydras is left depending on focus firing,even upgrades (iirc voids cost 3 supply per unit so they are more supply effective though)
also, double amount of hydras with 1-2 fungals thrown in kill voids with about 90% of the hydras left
conclusion: use fungal
conclusion no.2: don't theorycraft about units and their numbers, go and test stuff for real information.
The problem is not theorycrafting, it's theorycrafting horribly.
On December 05 2011 21:15 Alric wrote: Everyone's probably left by now, but a few more details on voids vs. corruptors. I assume upgrades are 0/0 for both players for simplicity. Once voids are charged (which will happen very quickly in a corrupter/void ray battle), they will do 23.3 dps to a corrupter, whilst the corruptors do 7.4 dps, which we bump up to 8.9 dps assuming the voids are corrupted. So already you see there is a huge difference. Now consider that voids have more health than corrupters, so one corrupter takes about 28.1 seconds to kill a void, whilst a charged void takes about 8.6 seconds to kill a corruptor. That is, void rays take our corruptors about 3.3 times faster than corruptors take our void rays, so you'll need AT LEAST 4 times the number of voids in corruptors to make it even. (You need a lot more since quickly the voids will start killing off corruptors and the DPS of the corruptor army will go down, whilst the first void rays will take longer to fall. Testing in map editor would really be needed to work out the exact numbers.) Now think that in terms of supply, a void ray is only 1.5 the worth of a corruptor. So if the opponent has any decent number of voids they will completely rape the corruptor army unless you have an absurd (and useless) amount of corrupters.
Point is corruptors are terrible. It's a pity that the only other zerg anti-air option (hydras) are even more terrible.
what are you trying to say, i don't understand. your math looks impressive, but
- the voidray is a counterunit for corruptor - the counterunit for voidray is the mutalisk or hydra
so you see 10 voidrays, make Mutas or hydras, but dont make 33 corruptors to kill them.
if a toss sees 30 corruptors, its not a bad idea, to make voidrays, though, its hard to pump them out fast enough.
The reason people think mutas or hydras are good against void rays is that you usually have the void rays very much outnumbered (thanks to how larvae work). In a maxed army situation with multiple stargates the zerg does not have that advantage.
So let's against assume 0/0 upgrades, neglect zerg health regeneration (these are only estimates) and for added bonus assume the voids are NOT charged. Then:
Hydras do 14.5 dps, so 1 hydra kills a void in 17.2 seconds. 1 void does 10 dps to hydas, and so kills a hydra in 8 seconds. So you need a fair bit greater than 2 times the amount of voids in hydras (for reasons listed above), so hydras are in fact NOT supply effective against voids.
Mutalisks have the glaive wurm. Once you take that into account mutalisks to 8.5 dps, and so kill a void in 29 seconds, whilst a void kills a mutalisk in 12 seconds. Again, mutalisks are NOT supply effective against voids. Note that in an upgraded scenario this looks even worse, since the armour/shield upgrades for the void ray affects each glaive bounce.
Reminder: in these scenarios the voids are NOT charged. Point is zerg anti-air sucks. (Infestors are not dedicated anti-air units; hydras and corruptors are. It speaks volumes about zerg anti-air that the spellcaster is the better at taking out voids than them.)
so i tested it just for you:
double amount of corruptors always beat void rays. 4 corruptors take out 2 void rays with 3 corruptors left over if the p doesn't focus fire, 10 corruptor takes out 5 rays with 6 corruptors left even upgrades of course
also same amount of corruptors demolish rays with infestor support- 6 corruptors kill 6 rays with chain fungals with 3 corruptors left (i wasn't even using corruption)
you're trying to make it sound worse than it really is, corruptors have 2 armor and 200 health, if you'd need 3 corruptors for each void, you'd basically have an 600 hp unit with 2 armor vs a 250 hp unit that has no armor, both dealing same damage which is not even obviously. corruptors are much much beefier per cost than voids, also u can pop 10 corruptors at once while it takes a long time to get out 10 voids.
i don't even remember a game where toss beat zerg with mass air play. maybe a 2 stargate rush but that's not mass air that a cheesy build that's dependent on z not scouting it or it fails instantly. ok stargate play with some voids and phoenixes is standard but zergs can deal with it more than fine. late game fungal+any kind of z anti air is more cost effective and damaging than any protoss air unit.
conclusion: use fungal
Ok fair enough. I did not neglect armour or hp, but I did neglect charge up time for the void ray. (I neglected it for simplicity not to make the corruptor sound worse.) In a 2 corruptor vs 1 void ray, assuming 0/0 and taking into account charge-up, time of death of first corruptor and assuming no corruption, then 1 corruptor will survive with ~70 hp. (Disclaimer: worked this out on paper not map editor.) So the charge-up makes a bigger difference than I thought and than my earlier post suggested. The point remains that corruptors are supply-ineffective against void rays, since you need to outnumber them 2:1 whilst voids/corruptor supply ratio is 1.5:1. (With corruption it would be even closer, but the point remains.) Good cop though; 2:1 is much better than 4:1, and that's my mistake.
As for the point about fungals - I ignored fungals because I was considering voids vs. corruptors in isolation, since people were claiming corruptors hard counter voids or something. If you allow that zergs can have infestors, then you have to allow that the Protoss can have blink stalkers and high templars. At which point micro becomes much more of a factor, so you can't just theory craft, but certainly you can't just chain fungal your way to victory.
And yeah your point about P never winning against Zerg with pure air is sort-of fair (though not quite true: Genius won a game recently with such a strategy in a major tournament, but I forget which one or against whom he was playing. It involved carriers too and not just voids). Again I wasn't imagining a mass corruptor/mass void ray army in reality; in reality there would be stalker, collosi, high templar, infestors, broodlords, roaches, etc. My point was that corruptors do not render voids useless in a late game composition since voids are supply effective against corruptors, and they are of course excellent against broods. If the zerg has corruptors to deal with colossus/mothership then voids are actually good to get since not only will they be good against the corruptors and broods but they will also shield the colossus and mothership from damage.
In fact void rays should be mixed into the late game composition in general, since although they cost a lot they are really supply effective (which is of course more important when you're maxed and have lots of money banked). They really add to the DPS of the Protoss death ball, and don't just automatically lose to air play like colossus.
Edit: ok I seem to have screwed up the hydra calculation as well. Mea culpa; I should learn to map editor than just theory crafting while drunk. I concede defeat.
EPT
(
