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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2?
In Sc2, you used your science vessel to snipe off arbiter or HT energy, because either of these could really screw you over. (Storm was insanely strong in BW, and arbiters ruined your day with recall and stasis.) But because of BW's dynamic (or decidedly un-dynamic, if you prefer) the units didn't clump up into balls, and were super spread out. So it really wouldn't be possible to blanket an entire protoss army with EMP's. You just needed to be clever and hit the really important stuff. It wasn't easy.
Plus science vessels were decently weak units, and you were always in trouble against dragoons. Needless the say, they couldn't cloak. And EMP was actually a projectile, that, if you were quick enough, could be dodged with arbiter. HT was too slow though. And of course, no smart casting.
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LET'S ALL WHINE ABOUT BALANCE
and totally ignore that despite having full vision ToD decided to go in with 0 spreading and just did a-move into loss.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but its hard to spread out a 200/200 protoss army.
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On October 30 2011 05:47 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2? Well spells had a totally different casting system outside of the spells themselves. If you selected a group of Sci-Ves and EMPed something, they would all cast EMP (like Storms etc.) so it was actually so much more difficult to pull off this blanket EMP shenanigans.
Plus it was MUCH slower
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On October 30 2011 05:47 Newbistic wrote:
LET'S ALL WHINE ABOUT BALANCE
and totally ignore that despite having full vision ToD decided to go in with 0 spreading and just did a-move into loss.
So true lets all agree Terran is stupid OP and go back to enjoying the tournament
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EMP was strong in Brood War as well, but marines weren't as strong, and marauders didn't exist. Units also didn't clump up like they do in SC 2, and storms were a lot stronger.
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On October 30 2011 05:49 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2? In Sc2, you used your science vessel to snipe off arbiter or HT energy, because either of these could really screw you over. (Storm was insanely strong in BW, and arbiters ruined your day with recall and stasis.) But because of BW's dynamic (or decidedly un-dynamic, if you prefer) the units didn't clump up into balls, and were super spread out. So it really wouldn't be possible to blanket an entire protoss army with EMP's. You just needed to be clever and hit the really important stuff. It wasn't easy. Plus science vessels were decently weak units, and you were always in trouble against dragoons. Needless the say, they couldn't cloak.
First time someone from TL staff has replied to a post of mine. Feels good man. Thanks for the answer aswell, shame that the pathing in SC2 is "worse" in the sense that units like to hug.
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I feel like Puma's unit composition was just better. He had just enough Vikings to kill the Colo without overcommiting to them. Chargelots are good but he just had the right mix of MMM to kill them without taking too much damage from them.
EMP or not I think he would've won that battle.
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On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2?
1) EMP was on Science Vessel (Raven in SC2) so you couldn't mass them and they were useless except for EMP, plus no cloak and low range.
2) Shields were different in BW, since shield took full damage from everything and Tanks did 70 damage per shot in Siege mode, it was never cost effective to EMP anything other than Arbiters, High Templars, and obviously Archons.
3) EMP was projectile and dodgeable.
4) EMP has tiny radius.
5) You get Science Vessels to deal with Arbiter cloak, not specifically for EMP (if so, it was a small percentage of games towards the end of BW).
6) Terran must go mech vs Protoss so storm wasn't as important in PvT. Arbiters were more common and it's really rare to clump up Arbiters.
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On October 30 2011 05:52 K3Nyy wrote:
I feel like Puma's unit composition was just better. He had just enough Vikings to kill the Colo without overcommiting to them. Chargelots are good but he just had the right mix of MMM to kill them without taking too much damage from them.
EMP or not I think he would've won that battle.
He had a lot of marines, storms would have wrecked his army
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On October 30 2011 05:53 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2? 1) EMP was on Science Vessel (Raven in SC2) so you couldn't mass them and they were useless except for EMP, plus no cloak and low range. 2) Shields were different in BW, since shield took full damage from everything and Tanks did 70 damage per shot in Siege mode, it was never cost effective to EMP anything other than Arbiters, High Templars, and obviously Archons. 3) EMP was projectile and dodgeable. 4) EMP has tiny radius. 5) You get Science Vessels to deal with Arbiter cloak, not specifically for EMP (if so, it was a small percentage of games towards the end of BW). 6) Terran must go mech vs Protoss so storm wasn't as important in PvT. Arbiters were more common and it's really rare to clump up Arbiters.
Couple this with the fact it killed all shields not just 100 and still was fine. It was used as a anti caster spell in 99% of games.
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On October 30 2011 05:44 amazingoopah wrote:
whoops, spoiler? someone gave tod a game before going to intermission.
+ Show Spoiler +Yep, turns out it was correct. Good catch 
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On October 30 2011 05:49 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2? In Sc2, you used your science vessel to snipe off arbiter or HT energy, because either of these could really screw you over. (Storm was insanely strong in BW, and arbiters ruined your day with recall and stasis.) But because of BW's dynamic (or decidedly un-dynamic, if you prefer) the units didn't clump up into balls, and were super spread out. So it really wouldn't be possible to blanket an entire protoss army with EMP's. You just needed to be clever and hit the really important stuff. It wasn't easy. Plus science vessels were decently weak units, and you were always in trouble against dragoons. Needless the say, they couldn't cloak. And EMP was actually a projectile, that, if you were quick enough, could be dodged with arbiter. HT was too slow though. And of course, no smart casting.
Science vessels were also quite high in the tech tree and are harder to produce in masses. For ghosts - well, you already have tech lab barracks for the marauders.
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Ahh yes. The other reason I rarely watch PvT anymore. ^_^
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On October 30 2011 05:56 myzael wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2011 05:53 Condor Hero wrote:On October 30 2011 05:45 KvltMan wrote:
I've got to ask, since everyone currently hates the EMP. How exactly was the EMP in BW? I know that the science vessel was pretty fast/mobile, but was it ever as "imbalanced" as it is in SC2? 1) EMP was on Science Vessel (Raven in SC2) so you couldn't mass them and they were useless except for EMP, plus no cloak and low range. 2) Shields were different in BW, since shield took full damage from everything and Tanks did 70 damage per shot in Siege mode, it was never cost effective to EMP anything other than Arbiters, High Templars, and obviously Archons. 3) EMP was projectile and dodgeable. 4) EMP has tiny radius. 5) You get Science Vessels to deal with Arbiter cloak, not specifically for EMP (if so, it was a small percentage of games towards the end of BW). 6) Terran must go mech vs Protoss so storm wasn't as important in PvT. Arbiters were more common and it's really rare to clump up Arbiters. Couple this with the fact it killed all shields not just 100 and still was fine. It was used as a anti caster spell in 99% of games.
The meching vs. toss feature of PvT in BW simply changes the entire dynamic. Terran had the strongest army in BW, but it was stationary. It wasn't ball vs. ball but a long siege line guarded by spider mines and supported by vultures and goliaths. The siege tank splash already made it imperative for Protoss to always spread out when engaging Terran and an extra tank was almost always better than a science vessel for raw damage output unless you needed to get rid of arbiters (which was effective vs. stationary mech for obvious reasons). EMP just doesn't play the same role there.
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Haha well, I think we all saw this coming :p
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United Kingdom38255 Posts
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is there something wrong about me already thinking ToD has lost, =D?
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On October 30 2011 06:01 nvs. wrote:
Ahh yes. The other reason I rarely watch PvT anymore. ^_^
thats so true, 1/1/1 and there's our 3 reasons completed
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Come on ToD! Show us what you got!!!
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EPT
