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On October 02 2011 16:28 Zeon0 wrote:i do respect Jinros opinion, but i do also respect facts. And Protoss got manhandled by Terrans prepatch, saying it was favored for Protoss is just wrong imho. And I dont think Jinro ever said P>T, he is just saying his T<P
Exactly, and that is the case for a lot of people. including other pros. I'm not a pro (high masters) but I always get raped in TvP because I either get caught with my pants down not being ready for a specific unit or specific engagement, or I get raped late game by Colossus/storms. Terran is just super fragile in TvP because bio dies so easily. This has nothing to do with balance, just a fact.
edit: also the reason why Koreans do so well in TvP is because of their high multitask / micro skills IMO. They are able to control marine/marauder+ghost+vikings+medivacs very well (this is HUGE in 200/200 battles especially) , and do drops while attacking a different point.
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The results said Strelok 2-0 jaguz while this map was going on. That's why I was asking if the stream was behind the OP results. = )
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On October 02 2011 16:31 Jehct wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:29 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:27 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:25 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:21 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:11 Hierarch wrote:
[quote]
The 7 range np probably will still only matter when there are like 4+ collosi, since roach/ling buffers enough for 6-7 infesters to move up and nab the couple collosi. Without the collosi the protoss army folds like a cheap tent. Not with blink stalkers. 2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat. Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous. Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army. How slow are the protoss players you're watching? At the amateur level neuraling colossi is a lot easier than the micro involved to counter it, but that isn't imbalance. How easy something is has no relevance to how powerful/balanced it is. How slow are the zergs you're watching? I'm talking about scenarios i've seen in pro matches, I've yet to see one protoss player offensive blink to kill infesters in a major confrontation, to be fair most protoss die before that happens anyway to a multitude of things, ie: DRG vs Yonghwa where he died to ling/infested terran/roach There hasn't been a PvZ in the GSL since the patch where colossi have been neuraled, has there? From what I've been watching, the protoss either all-ins or the zerg hits a timing with infestors. Doesn't show the impact of the change at all. Which was my point all along, it's stupid to say the matchup has been broken by the patch when there's no evidence to support that statement. The 2 tanks shooting hellions for Strelok definitely didn't help him in that engagement. I don't think the matchup is broken at all (and I didn't say so). I was explaining why the macro games we've seen in IEM look like they were played 6 months ago (with better expansion & drone timings from the zerg).
lol, I understand that 
This whole conversation started from me responding to Asha on "How the patch broke PvZ"
♥
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I just hope it won't be idra vs dimaga ;/
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On October 02 2011 16:33 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:31 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:29 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:27 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:25 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:21 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:12 Jehct wrote:
[quote]
Not with blink stalkers. 2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat. Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous. Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army. How slow are the protoss players you're watching? At the amateur level neuraling colossi is a lot easier than the micro involved to counter it, but that isn't imbalance. How easy something is has no relevance to how powerful/balanced it is. How slow are the zergs you're watching? I'm talking about scenarios i've seen in pro matches, I've yet to see one protoss player offensive blink to kill infesters in a major confrontation, to be fair most protoss die before that happens anyway to a multitude of things, ie: DRG vs Yonghwa where he died to ling/infested terran/roach There hasn't been a PvZ in the GSL since the patch where colossi have been neuraled, has there? From what I've been watching, the protoss either all-ins or the zerg hits a timing with infestors. Doesn't show the impact of the change at all. Which was my point all along, it's stupid to say the matchup has been broken by the patch when there's no evidence to support that statement. The 2 tanks shooting hellions for Strelok definitely didn't help him in that engagement. I don't think the matchup is broken at all (and I didn't say so). I was explaining why the macro games we've seen in IEM look like they were played 6 months ago (with better expansion & drone timings from the zerg). lol, I understand that This whole conversation started from me responding to Asha on "How the patch broke PvZ" ♥
Am I being misconstrued on balance issues? I'm talking purely from a watchability perspective. It was infinitely more dynamic pre-patch.
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On October 02 2011 16:32 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:28 Zeon0 wrote:i do respect Jinros opinion, but i do also respect facts. And Protoss got manhandled by Terrans prepatch, saying it was favored for Protoss is just wrong imho. And I dont think Jinro ever said P>T, he is just saying his T<P Exactly, and that is the case for a lot of people. including other pros. I'm not a pro (high masters) but I always get raped in TvP because I either get caught with my pants down not being ready for a specific unit or specific engagement, or I get raped late game by Colossus/storms. Terran is just super fragile in TvP because bio dies so easily. This has nothing to do with balance, just a fact.
P is also fragile. clump up your sentries/ht, get emp'd once and u get steamrolled by the incredible dmg output of stim'd bio.
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On October 02 2011 16:34 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:33 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:31 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:29 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:27 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:25 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:21 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:13 Hierarch wrote:
[quote]
2 range won't change the kill radius a blink forward can do, the reason people didn't do it before was because the zerg fungals most of the time and blinking onto mass roach/ling is suicide since stalkers are made of paper when in actual combat. Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous. Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army. How slow are the protoss players you're watching? At the amateur level neuraling colossi is a lot easier than the micro involved to counter it, but that isn't imbalance. How easy something is has no relevance to how powerful/balanced it is. How slow are the zergs you're watching? I'm talking about scenarios i've seen in pro matches, I've yet to see one protoss player offensive blink to kill infesters in a major confrontation, to be fair most protoss die before that happens anyway to a multitude of things, ie: DRG vs Yonghwa where he died to ling/infested terran/roach There hasn't been a PvZ in the GSL since the patch where colossi have been neuraled, has there? From what I've been watching, the protoss either all-ins or the zerg hits a timing with infestors. Doesn't show the impact of the change at all. Which was my point all along, it's stupid to say the matchup has been broken by the patch when there's no evidence to support that statement. The 2 tanks shooting hellions for Strelok definitely didn't help him in that engagement. I don't think the matchup is broken at all (and I didn't say so). I was explaining why the macro games we've seen in IEM look like they were played 6 months ago (with better expansion & drone timings from the zerg). lol, I understand that This whole conversation started from me responding to Asha on "How the patch broke PvZ" ♥ Am I being misconstrued on balance issues? I'm talking purely from a watchability perspective. It was infinitely more dynamic pre-patch.
Oh... I thought you were saying ruined on balance not on spectating, whoops T_T
Context what a wonderful thing, yet so hard to discern on the internet.
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Hey Idra, you know what they call Chinese food there? Food! Ahaha, I'm precious.
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Strelok's control is really good. It's hard to think AND micro against him AND remember to purchase shit.
GG
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On October 02 2011 16:36 Hierarch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:34 Asha` wrote:On October 02 2011 16:33 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:31 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:29 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:27 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:25 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:21 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Jehct wrote:
[quote]
Yes it does, what are you talking about. Stalkers have 7 range; if the colossus is underneath stalkers, the stalkers can shoot the infestor. Even if you don't have blink now you can deny the neurals, it's ridiculous. Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army. How slow are the protoss players you're watching? At the amateur level neuraling colossi is a lot easier than the micro involved to counter it, but that isn't imbalance. How easy something is has no relevance to how powerful/balanced it is. How slow are the zergs you're watching? I'm talking about scenarios i've seen in pro matches, I've yet to see one protoss player offensive blink to kill infesters in a major confrontation, to be fair most protoss die before that happens anyway to a multitude of things, ie: DRG vs Yonghwa where he died to ling/infested terran/roach There hasn't been a PvZ in the GSL since the patch where colossi have been neuraled, has there? From what I've been watching, the protoss either all-ins or the zerg hits a timing with infestors. Doesn't show the impact of the change at all. Which was my point all along, it's stupid to say the matchup has been broken by the patch when there's no evidence to support that statement. The 2 tanks shooting hellions for Strelok definitely didn't help him in that engagement. I don't think the matchup is broken at all (and I didn't say so). I was explaining why the macro games we've seen in IEM look like they were played 6 months ago (with better expansion & drone timings from the zerg). lol, I understand that This whole conversation started from me responding to Asha on "How the patch broke PvZ" ♥ Am I being misconstrued on balance issues? I'm talking purely from a watchability perspective. It was infinitely more dynamic pre-patch. Oh... I thought you were saying ruined on balance not on spectating, whoops T_T Context what a wonderful thing, yet so hard to discern on the internet.
Hahaha, I like how it spawned so many pages of discussion too =p
Nono I don't think balance is an issue, I just feel the patch made the match up regress a bit and it's disappointing because it's much staler from a spectators PoV ^^
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I really hope Revival doesn't get a ZvZ, he's utterly hopeless at it =p
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baneling drops aren't as good since the patch? I thought the rumor about those getting nerfed was false?
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On October 02 2011 16:37 iaguz wrote:
Strelok's control is really good. It's hard to think AND micro against him AND remember to purchase shit.
GG
Shoutout to TA. ;]
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On October 02 2011 16:37 iaguz wrote:
Strelok's control is really good. It's hard to think AND micro against him AND remember to purchase shit.
GG
You played very well in game 2, showed a high level of skill. Losing to strelok is nothing to hang your head on.
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Rofl Idra "Tons of luck in ZvZ"
Nerchio would like to have a word...
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On October 02 2011 16:37 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2011 16:36 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:34 Asha` wrote:On October 02 2011 16:33 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:31 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:29 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:27 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:25 Hierarch wrote:On October 02 2011 16:21 Jehct wrote:On October 02 2011 16:15 Hierarch wrote:
[quote]
Stalkers have 6 range, which means they will still get fungaled and then implode under the wave of roach/ling since the collosi will be taken out of the battle for atleast 5-8 seconds which is enough to crush a protoss army. How slow are the protoss players you're watching? At the amateur level neuraling colossi is a lot easier than the micro involved to counter it, but that isn't imbalance. How easy something is has no relevance to how powerful/balanced it is. How slow are the zergs you're watching? I'm talking about scenarios i've seen in pro matches, I've yet to see one protoss player offensive blink to kill infesters in a major confrontation, to be fair most protoss die before that happens anyway to a multitude of things, ie: DRG vs Yonghwa where he died to ling/infested terran/roach There hasn't been a PvZ in the GSL since the patch where colossi have been neuraled, has there? From what I've been watching, the protoss either all-ins or the zerg hits a timing with infestors. Doesn't show the impact of the change at all. Which was my point all along, it's stupid to say the matchup has been broken by the patch when there's no evidence to support that statement. The 2 tanks shooting hellions for Strelok definitely didn't help him in that engagement. I don't think the matchup is broken at all (and I didn't say so). I was explaining why the macro games we've seen in IEM look like they were played 6 months ago (with better expansion & drone timings from the zerg). lol, I understand that This whole conversation started from me responding to Asha on "How the patch broke PvZ" ♥ Am I being misconstrued on balance issues? I'm talking purely from a watchability perspective. It was infinitely more dynamic pre-patch. Oh... I thought you were saying ruined on balance not on spectating, whoops T_T Context what a wonderful thing, yet so hard to discern on the internet. Hahaha, I like how it spawned so many pages of discussion too =p Nono I don't think balance is an issue, I just feel the patch made the match up regress a bit and it's disappointing because it's much staler from a spectators PoV ^^
It's a ton less fun to play too =( Hopefully people will figure things out more, though. Roach/hydra/corruptor is such a shitty playstyle =(
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On October 02 2011 16:37 iaguz wrote:
Strelok's control is really good. It's hard to think AND micro against him AND remember to purchase shit.
GG
Well-said, lol.
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Edit - accidental late post and others have already made my point, so editting out to prevent more pointless discussion
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EPT
