Am I really the only one who thinks ESPORTS needs this deep rooted enmity of certain players to help fuel it's life cycle?
Seriously - how many people would really care and be passionate about baseball if it wasn't for rivalries like the Yankees-Red Sox, or the Cubs-White Sox? These are a deep-rooted part of the history of baseball. In the NBA, it's the Celtics and the Lakers, or the Celtics and the Knicks. You love one, you absolutely despise the other.
These add extra meaning to games that would otherwise be just simple somewhat meaningless matchups between two foes, games that hold little meaning in the grand scheme of things but now take on extra meaning in terms of the loyal fanbase.
Without the fans, these sports (and, by the same token, ESPORTS) become meaningless and diminish. Baseball fans aren't going to watch 162 games a year. NBA fans probably don't mostly watch 82 games a year. And I know I don't have time to watch every time IdrA plays. But god damn, if I know he's playing someone where there's pride on the line (CrunCher, for example), I will devour that match. Rivalries like this build a bigger, more passionate scene, and it's ok to absolutely despise the other player and hope that he trips over his grandmother and breaks his wrist and never plays again loses so embarrassingly that he wants to shrink away into the darkness. And if he beats my favorite player? You're damn right I'm going to call him a skilless fucking newbie who wins by doing stupid shit and berate the piss out of him.
On November 05 2011 21:48 mvtaylor wrote: I'd sort of like a secret patch by blizzard where a fourth gateway in a PvP really early in the game causes your nexus to blow up.
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and proxy pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
yup, pretty much this. well, except for the last line that is haha - there's no carrier in HOTS unfortunately =(
I just love the drama what one man can generate by 4-gating fan favorites :D. Same thing happens with terran players all-innin, shit just hits the fans!
Roach ling all-in on the otherhand is allways clutch timing attack that punishes greedy players.
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
In other words, 4 Gate is the Nash equilibrium of PvP.
On November 05 2011 21:42 NKsc2 wrote: The sc2 community is fucking horrible. I haven't been a member for TL for very long but from what I heard from incontrol and state of the game, they made it sound good. Elfi wins 2 games and people are BASHING HIM calling him terrible for what strategy he used? Now white-ra wins. Let's cheer for white-ra. Nah, elfi beat huk, he's an asshole. Let's bash him instead. Fucking disgusting.
Its not disgusting, its just how people support things.
Tourneys would be boring as piss if everyone liked every player and every playstyle.
It's ok to not like players, but to bash them is unacceptable.
He wins by doing stupid shit though...
On November 05 2011 21:47 Panicc wrote:
On November 05 2011 21:45 Blaec wrote:
On November 05 2011 21:42 NKsc2 wrote: The sc2 community is fucking horrible. I haven't been a member for TL for very long but from what I heard from incontrol and state of the game, they made it sound good. Elfi wins 2 games and people are BASHING HIM calling him terrible for what strategy he used? Now white-ra wins. Let's cheer for white-ra. Nah, elfi beat huk, he's an asshole. Let's bash him instead. Fucking disgusting.
Its not disgusting, its just how people support things.
Tourneys would be boring as piss if everyone liked every player and every playstyle.
No he is right. ITS disgusting... This community feels pretty shitty atm and if thats the future of esport.. then i hope esports will never be big People like you who are telling others that it is "normal" to bash are like cancer which needs to be cut off
Uhhh... have you ever asked a Yankees fan how he feels about a Red Sox player? Or a Giants fan about an Eagles player?
Immense hatred and bashing is part of all sports - it's part of the passion in supporting your favorite players/teams.
Yeah man 100% right on that.Especially in football where people the fans actually get into a riot and fought the other team fans when their team loses.This is nothing compared to that as this is e-sports which is bashing on the internet.
Its what stupid monkeys do If you have to bash you are just an asshole and using the word "fan" as a reason to bash others... Maybe its the american style but we in germany are civilized (of course there a a few ultras but they are like 0.001%)
Ummmm Given German history you really can't call yourselves civilized lol. And the "football" (lol soccer) riots he's referring to happen in Europe.
User was warned for this post
Handegg is not football and Germany is not Europe.
..and I'm really looking forward to the Select vs Idra TvZ finals! :D
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
In other words, 4 Gate is the Nash equilibrium of PvP.
Why yes sir.
I busted up laughing at the previous quote and didnt get this response until I saw who made it...extra laughs were had.
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and proxy pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
yup, pretty much this. well, except for the last line that is haha - there's no carrier in HOTS unfortunately =(
I know which is why I said Hots would ruin everything ^-^.
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and proxy pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
yup, pretty much this. well, except for the last line that is haha - there's no carrier in HOTS unfortunately =(
I know which is why I said Hots would ruin everything ^-^.
On November 05 2011 21:45 McBrungus wrote: Why is it that PvP goes from being horrifically boring to being weird but really fun to watch to being just absolutely terrible again every few months?
Because it takes precisely that long for the majority of the players to figure out that whatever blizzard just did in it's last patch doesn't matter and fourgate is still the optimal build. People experiment for a few weeks, then just rework the timings and proxy pylon positions for their fourgate. Huk and Hero can both PvP without fourgate and yet their first game at the last mlg was a 4gate into a base race? The last really long PvP I saw was in the GSL on bel'shir beach and it came down to both players have 8+ colossi and just lazering each other to death which is equally uninteresting.
The biggest problem is that the 4gate is like the 1/1/1, there's this innate fear of it from other protoss and so they often fourgate in response to that fear. Then you either have the fear be correct and it's fourgate vs fourgate or you have one player doing something normal and the other fourgating.
Sometimes if both players fourgate and come out even you get games where they both back away and play a macro game up to about 3 bases and then go for another big push that decides the fate of the game, this can actually be interesting.
I'm certain it's not viable but just once before Hots comes out and ruins everything I want to see skytoss vs skytoss, Phoenix, carrier, voidrays compositions could be quite interesting.
Its no that it takes that long for people to realise it is still the best build it is that it takes that long for people to start playing greedy.
PvP Timeline: Phase 1: everyone 4 gates it is the only build Phase 2: People develop 4 gate proof builds for a time it is 50% 4gate vs 4 gate and 50% 4 gate vs counter 4 gate Phase 3: Everyone does 4 gate proof builds 4gate is rather rare and only used as a suprise tactic Phase 4: People play greedy to gain an advantage vs people doing 4 gate proof builds Phase 5: People start recognizing that people are playing greedy and are no longer safe vs a 4gate Return to Phase 1
On November 05 2011 21:42 NKsc2 wrote: The sc2 community is fucking horrible. I haven't been a member for TL for very long but from what I heard from incontrol and state of the game, they made it sound good. Elfi wins 2 games and people are BASHING HIM calling him terrible for what strategy he used? Now white-ra wins. Let's cheer for white-ra. Nah, elfi beat huk, he's an asshole. Let's bash him instead. Fucking disgusting.
Its not disgusting, its just how people support things.
Tourneys would be boring as piss if everyone liked every player and every playstyle.
No he is right. ITS disgusting... This community feels pretty shitty atm and if thats the future of esport.. then i hope esports will never be big People like you who are telling others that it is "normal" to bash are like cancer which needs to be cut off
Basically when IdrA says something bad about a new, unknown player, he is flamed to death no matter what in TL. After that, two choices: Either you really step it up until the skill can not be denied by anyone or just play the competition, win and lose sometimes and get flamed all the time.
What's IdrA have to do with this? Elfi wasn't being flamed at all after IEM China.
I wouldn't say "at all" from what I read. This is nothing against IdrA himself, it's just that a lot of people mindlessly take his opionion without a grain of salt. "I couldn't smile after the finals after winning against such a bad player" (from memory, no direct quite) - it influences the perception of a lot of people. Moreover, Cruncher being flamed all the time for winning a single BO3 in TSL3 was somewhat disgusting (maybe there are more sides on this story, dunno).
Why do we have to criticize players because of their success? If anything, hate the game. And if you think some playstyles fade away and some players with it then let time deal with it. Players investing so much in the game being called out all the time makes me sad.
On November 05 2011 21:42 NKsc2 wrote: The sc2 community is fucking horrible. I haven't been a member for TL for very long but from what I heard from incontrol and state of the game, they made it sound good. Elfi wins 2 games and people are BASHING HIM calling him terrible for what strategy he used? Now white-ra wins. Let's cheer for white-ra. Nah, elfi beat huk, he's an asshole. Let's bash him instead. Fucking disgusting.
Its not disgusting, its just how people support things.
Tourneys would be boring as piss if everyone liked every player and every playstyle.
It's ok to not like players, but to bash them is unacceptable.
He wins by doing stupid shit though...
On November 05 2011 21:47 Panicc wrote:
On November 05 2011 21:45 Blaec wrote:
On November 05 2011 21:42 NKsc2 wrote: The sc2 community is fucking horrible. I haven't been a member for TL for very long but from what I heard from incontrol and state of the game, they made it sound good. Elfi wins 2 games and people are BASHING HIM calling him terrible for what strategy he used? Now white-ra wins. Let's cheer for white-ra. Nah, elfi beat huk, he's an asshole. Let's bash him instead. Fucking disgusting.
Its not disgusting, its just how people support things.
Tourneys would be boring as piss if everyone liked every player and every playstyle.
No he is right. ITS disgusting... This community feels pretty shitty atm and if thats the future of esport.. then i hope esports will never be big People like you who are telling others that it is "normal" to bash are like cancer which needs to be cut off
Uhhh... have you ever asked a Yankees fan how he feels about a Red Sox player? Or a Giants fan about an Eagles player?
Immense hatred and bashing is part of all sports - it's part of the passion in supporting your favorite players/teams.
Yeah man 100% right on that.Especially in football where people the fans actually get into a riot and fought the other team fans when their team loses.This is nothing compared to that as this is e-sports which is bashing on the internet.
Its what stupid monkeys do If you have to bash you are just an asshole and using the word "fan" as a reason to bash others... Maybe its the american style but we in germany are civilized (of course there a a few ultras but they are like 0.001%)
Ummmm Given German history you really can't call yourselves civilized lol. And the "football" (lol soccer) riots he's referring to happen in Europe.
User was warned for this post
Wow.
First of all, the ww2 reference was pretty inappropiate. Second of all, it IS football, you kick around a ball with ur FOOT, hence the name. In ur sport majority of the game people hold the ball in their hands, it should be named Handball (lol).
And yea fans gets passionate and all that, but I still think that it goes over the top some times. Calling a player a "mofo" cus the player he played against couldnt hold the most standard of standard attacks in pvp? Thats a bit excessive. I guess im just not enough of a passionate fan when it comes to sport lol. I watch for game quality not rivalries.
Not trying to generalise but perhaps it's more of an NA thing? I might be off but I havnt really noticed stuff like this in Denmark. Sure Brøndby fans hate a bit on FCK when they (always :D) lose to them, and sometimes "fights" (fights as in yeliing at each other and pushing etc). happen but that always happen. You dont call a player a mofo just cus he played better lol.
EPT
People like you who are telling others that it is "normal" to bash are like cancer which needs to be cut off
