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Please keep the following things out of this topic:
-Caster/Stream/player bashing;
-Imbalance/race whine;
-LoL vs the world arguments;
-'Omfg cant believe people aren't watching SPL finals' comments;
-any other assorted offtopic negativism and arguments.
Enjoy this free multiday/multigame event that has been provided to you. Share your enthusiasm for the games!
Feel free to shoot me a PM or query me on IRC for any questions or comments. Have fun! ~Nyovne
[special edit: Any more derailing over the fact that someone made a Germany vs Poland WW2 joke after page 21 will be met with a week ban.] |
On August 22 2011 03:02 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:57 aebriol wrote:
MC isn't as good as he was, he is out of the GSL
Not to talk about balance or anything, but even if he lost, I though MC play was quite impressive and I don't think he is playing worse than usual.
Yeah it was really great. Holding a 1-1-1 all in and beeing 30 supply ahead. His Prisma HT play is just amazing. MC planned the last game from beginning until the end and it was impressive. He put a lot work in his style and grew in the last weeks.
Puma on the other side played 1-1-1 all in, std defensive macro game with drops (which he executed really bad) and 1-1-1 again. But he played confident and had good army control with a bit of luck.
I'm just saying that 3:0 for Puma doesn't really show the "true" result.
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On August 22 2011 02:55 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:47 Ramble wrote:On August 22 2011 02:46 Andr3 wrote:
Why was there no whine during the BW days.
Now that I think about it, I wonder if BW pros whined about certain strategies that dominated certain eras. Just like 1-1-1 is "owning" it up again now in SC2.
MC's couple mistakes were too great and those cost him the game :[
Very well played by Puma, I hope to see more matches between these two ^^ People whined in BW as well, it's just everyone knew no balance patches or expansions were coming. And people should have the same mindset in SC2, treat the game as no patches were coming, see how you can improve instead of your race. This. Seriously, BW pros in Korea all have an "inner rage" when it seems like the other race has figured out a way to abuse a particular match-up. (Science vessel v lurkers / defilers / ultras... Archon, storm, reaver late game PvZ) etc. But the Zergs persisted and eventually found out ways of dealing with Terran abusiveness in T v Z. Builds are STILL being trialled and refined even today. BW has been out for... how many years? WHiners will whine, but the wise will wait with patience and try to deal with the bumps in the long roadtrip called starcraft
Brood War's effective skill ceiling (by effective I mean the size of the edge that you gain by being much better than your opponent) is much higher than SC2, you can't compare them.
Brood War is also a much more complicated game with terrain and spatial control being as much of a factor as your unit composition. Comparing these two games is like comparing chess and checkers.
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On August 22 2011 03:07 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:04 hmunkey wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 s3183529 wrote:
Slayers_Cella and IMMVP both said 111 "imba" against Toss, and those pro Koreans sure don't know anything about SC2. Nestea and IdrA both say protoss is overpowered against zerg, but you don't give them the time of day. We could play this game forever. Complete and utter horseshit, lemme quote NesTea: "I don't understand why other zerg players complain so much about protoss, it's such an easy matchup" ...
okay that's not fair nestea is a god
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MC's army got split up and taken out several times in that last game. He needlessly lost a few phoenixes and never snuck a probe out from his hidden expo even though it was already saturated. That expensive DT shrine also went to waste because MC only got a couple of DT's that just ran into Puma's balled up army with a raven above it. I believe Puma was also down to 1 building at the end, so had MC built another building somewhere far around the map (maybe even a nexus in the gas vents instead of warping in a few zealots that got immediately taken out toward the end), he may have won the game.
Of course, I realize that hindsight is 20/20 and MC is still one of the greatest player in the world even though he's been slumping a bit lately. However, I'm just pointing some things out because I do not believe Puma's build in the 3rd game was unstoppable.
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On August 22 2011 03:02 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:51 morningbreeze wrote:On August 22 2011 02:40 WickedBit wrote:On August 22 2011 02:35 Fig wrote:wow so sad when the best toss player in the world can't beat 1/1/1. At least there is bound to be a patch soon  Always look for the silver lining. Im sorry but blizz wont nerf terran. I think we need a new morrow who will just 1/1/1 every game with toss till blizz nerf it or buff toss. I have no idea why all terrans dont do it every game. Is it a morality thing ? Clearly here is a build when decently executed will beat all tosses in the world and there is no good response and doesnt require toss to be 100 times better than terran to hold. PuMA cheesed his way to final win and people are saying he is good ? I saw nothing in this game from Puma that any terran in the world wont be capable off. He is just a random code B scrub who has trouble in korea since he sucks at TvT since everyone is a terran there. Let me see him beet MVP or bomber and I'll agree he is good. All he did is come out of korea to own non koreans . I don't think Puma 1/1/1'd MC in the NASL finals. In fact, I remember him playing some pretty beastly games. Am I wrong? I kind of agree with your point about the 1/1/1's potency, but come on... you really think Flash's practice partner is a scrub? The 1/1/1 looks unbeatable right now. Just like every other powerful build that's ever been discovered. And I agree that if a serious response isn't developed, it will constitute a serious imbalance. But you know full well there's going to be a delay between problem and solution. Abusive builds have come and gone, but pros can't be blamed for using them, and so far the vast majority of them have been solved through innovation, not patches. Give us some examples? I think just the opposite. Players say things are figured out but truth is Blizzard figured it out for players after months of failure to find an answer.. Zerg never learned how to deal with reapers, reapers were nerfed. Zerg never learned how to deal with bunker rushes, bunkers were nerfed. 2-rax a problem? Depot before rax nerf. 2-gating zealot pressure too hard to defend? Nerf zealot build times. Stim pushes to powerful? Nerf stim. Warp-gate pushes to effective? Delay warp-gate research. Air openers to much of a hassle to deal with? First nerf the Void Ray. That didnt work? Still having problems with banshees? Buff spore-root time so they don't have to pay as much a cost for poor building placement. Death-ball? Here you go zergs, your all-in-one counter, Infestors, 100% more DPS and 130% more DPS to armored. And so on. Perhaps you can list a few seemingly imba strats solved by players on thier own please?
2 base mutaling versus toss was solved by 6 gate timing.
that was the only thing that is in my mind atm.
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On August 22 2011 03:00 StatikKhaos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:53 chatuka wrote:On August 22 2011 02:50 MrDudeMan wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Catchafire2000 wrote:
Not to be a douche, but your pointing out mistakes from a TWO time GSL winner? I'm sure MC knows what he's doing and has the control. Let's not take anything away from Puma here, he's just really good. And MC is really good as well. A lot of the people in this thread are commenting as if MC played perfectly and still lost. They are quick to forget about things like bad engagements, playing an econ style when you know your opponent is going to all in, losing a warp prism full of hts, getting a whole squad of ht's emp'd, separating a huge group of stalkers from the rest of your army. Ironically, whenever someone all-ins idra in a game, its usually people going on and on about how idra shouldn't drone/engage at that time. It's not as if Puma didn't make mistakes either. 1st game. Puma did a silly 1/1/1 that got countered hard... MC should have won game won.. but didn't. 2nd game. Puma never was able to harass with marines, He even lost quite a few to marine drops. Economically Puma never matched MC in game two, in which MC should have won again. Puma got lucky. 3rd game.. MC did something crazy desperate and lost. It's not if Puma was the amazing player today. It's more like MC screwing things up for himself. Which could be to his lost psychological confidence that he usually has. Puma is in his head. that is disrupting MC's play. 1.MC had to many immortals during the second push so he lost 2. The upgrades in the last big fight were 1-1 for toss and 3-2 for Terran, they terran will ALWAYS win that (and also there was a warp prism with 2 full energy templars that got sniped) but really it came down to the fact that puma had a crazy upgrade advantage 3. Puma just out played MC, and Puma won Puma never "got lucky" he had better control, amazing decision making, and (in game 2) way better upgrades...so luck had nothing to do with it
MC had a supply advantage... after the first 1/1/1.. He made a mistake by expanding against and not counter attacking Puma's base.
2. MC had like a180 to 140 supply advantage.
MC didn't need a 5th base which was a mistake. where MC needed to make units not nexus's at that point.
He also should have attacked when he was up in supply at Puma's expansions.
Economically speaking MC was way ahead of PUMA. And in the end MC was at 2/2. with more units and more templars, MC should have won the game.
3. PUMA did not outplay MC in the third game... MC just screwed it up by making a random strategy. at this point MC was damaged psychologically by Puma. I liked MC's hidden Expo. but he didn't build enough units to counter against MMM.
It's not like PUma played spectacularly well. his strategy I could even say his play is predictable to determine at this point.
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puma deffo didn't outplay mc, 1 basing 2 of the games just goes to show how vulnerable protoss are to a nasty tactic that can't be punished. Noone should expect the protoss player to play perfect while the terran has a set strategy from the get go and some nice room for error
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On August 22 2011 03:06 sjschmidt93 wrote:
OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
MC once said that if he played Terran he would have won GSL 3 times already.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply
Lmao.
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On August 22 2011 03:07 PBG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:05 Mohdoo wrote:On August 22 2011 03:04 PBG wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 s3183529 wrote:
Slayers_Cella and IMMVP both said 111 "imba" against Toss, and those pro Koreans sure don't know anything about SC2. MVP also said Terran is the weakest race. Yeah 100 patches ago. -_- try 4-5 months ago and there's been what? 1 patch maybe 2 patches of actual game changes since then.
One of those few patches being infestors....The other being 4gate nerf.....
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On August 22 2011 02:58 Lakai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 02:52 DooMDash wrote:
Remember when Puma beat MC with out 1-1-1 anyway in another big tournament finals? Crazy I know right. Remember when that series was 4-3 and close where as this was 3-0 and one-sided. Either puma got a ton better, mc got a ton worse or terran got a lot better or protoss got a lot worse. Take your pick.
it was prolly nerves. i mean puma beat mc in a macro game series for the NASL title.
nerchio lost recently to white ra and he played terribly due to his nerves.
Why do people have to look at the scoreline then complain about balance when it could have been nerves.
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On August 22 2011 03:06 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:04 Plansix wrote:On August 22 2011 02:57 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Xanatoss wrote:
Sick Finals.
Although I am a P Player I have to admire the beauty of the 1/1/1 Build.
Streamlined to the extreme, very robust and since today we know its even repeatable ^^ Why would it not be repeatable, MC knew that it is coming even in game 1. You forget that 1-1-1 looks exactly like 2 port banshee, blue flame drops, thor-marine and every other one base terran build. They can even mix is up, go heavy tanks, heavy marines, get a raven or 2. All they need to do is scan and tweek their composition to deal with the protoss's. Expand later, get Colossus faster, cancel expo if you need to
Proceed to lose to banshees and/or get contained within your base by superior range siege tanks. 300/200 colossi on one base leave almost no stalkers to deal with banshees and you also would have to get 200/200 range to poke out. Nope.
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On August 22 2011 03:07 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:05 Telcontar wrote:
Hate to use this cliché, but don't hate the player; hate the game. It's not Puma's fault that he's using the strongest strategy currently available to him. Yeah the 1/1/1 seems mighty strong right now, but that's not Puma's fault, and you really can't hold it against him for using it (especially on Xel'Naga & Metalopolis close air). really? Because when toss used to 4gate he would get endless shit for it.
huh this situation seems very similar..i wonder how..
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On August 22 2011 03:06 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:04 Plansix wrote:On August 22 2011 02:57 mcc wrote:On August 22 2011 02:41 Xanatoss wrote:
Sick Finals.
Although I am a P Player I have to admire the beauty of the 1/1/1 Build.
Streamlined to the extreme, very robust and since today we know its even repeatable ^^ Why would it not be repeatable, MC knew that it is coming even in game 1. You forget that 1-1-1 looks exactly like 2 port banshee, blue flame drops, thor-marine and every other one base terran build. They can even mix is up, go heavy tanks, heavy marines, get a raven or 2. All they need to do is scan and tweek their composition to deal with the protoss's. Expand later, get Colossus faster, cancel expo if you need to
Wait, are you truly advising people to go one base colossus against 1-1-1? That's one of the worst possible builds ever. Even two base fast colossus sucks.
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On August 22 2011 03:07 PBG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:05 Mohdoo wrote:On August 22 2011 03:04 PBG wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 s3183529 wrote:
Slayers_Cella and IMMVP both said 111 "imba" against Toss, and those pro Koreans sure don't know anything about SC2. MVP also said Terran is the weakest race. Yeah 100 patches ago. -_- try 4-5 months ago and there's been what? 1 patch maybe 2 patches of actual game changes since then.
Don't take that out of context.
It was months and he said Terran was weakest in the GSL because the maps were so big.
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mana beat puma 2-0 , white ra beats puma 2-0 at the same event (i dont know if it was a exhibition match or what) , guess why? he never used 1-1-1 in those match ups, puma clearly won this because of not being a superior player or outplaying the opponent, its the 1-1-1 build. btw mc was outplaying puma so hardcore in the 2nd game not even funny, mc got too greedy , 1 too many expansion and lost a warp prism full of templars due to upgrade speed finishing during the engagement.
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OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee
"Foreign fans can't even read the games so they're acting like the Terran played well lololol. That's why Blizzard can't Patch"
koreans, such a funny ppl
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Can someone explain to me why 1-1-1 is imba in general? I'm not trying to troll here, but the only reason people are listing for 1-1-1 being so overpowered is that PuMa just beat MC in three very lackluster games (I think MC was not playing up to his normal level).
But yeah is 1-1-1 actually destroying the metagame or is this just normal TL qq after a big tournament?
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On August 22 2011 03:07 sjschmidt93 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 03:07 mordk wrote:On August 22 2011 03:04 hmunkey wrote:On August 22 2011 03:02 s3183529 wrote:
Slayers_Cella and IMMVP both said 111 "imba" against Toss, and those pro Koreans sure don't know anything about SC2. Nestea and IdrA both say protoss is overpowered against zerg, but you don't give them the time of day. We could play this game forever. Complete and utter horseshit, lemme quote NesTea: "I don't understand why other zerg players complain so much about protoss, it's such an easy matchup" ... okay that's not fair nestea is a god
When the best player of their race is defending "certain" builds or matchups, then you know it can be done if you get better. I think most QQ is due to MC the best protoss in the world losing to 1/1/1 despite scouting it super early(literally before any tanks).
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Increase forcefield range IMO -- allow us to contain 1-1-1-ers
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EPT
