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On August 12 2011 12:06 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:02 Hollis wrote:On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. Do you even know I exist? Good luck getting a Neural against someone who is turtling effectively. The Toss would have to make a mistake to get good neurals. The entire point is that it is their game to lose, and not yours to win. That is a large distinction.
I actually agree with you on the point that it is Protoss's game to lose, but I have seen games where Zerg neurals colossi and makes the Toss deathball look like it's made of paper mache - games where the Protoss doesn't make any real mistakes, it's Zerg deathball vs Protoss deathball, the Infestors aren't as easily sniped as you think when there are 20-30 roaches tanking for them much better than usual because the Colossi are shooting at their own stalkers.
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On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective.
Are people still convinced about this?
Lol.
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On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it?
BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers....
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I like the mental image of Tasteless and Artosis sitting in one of their apartments casting these games because they love it. Tasteless even sounds much more relaxed than at the Gom studio which makes this cast even more enjoyable (also Artosis nice as usual). ♥
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On August 12 2011 12:08 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:07 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually. That was like the 4th engagement. Can't just ignore the ones before that. ....but that was him killing colossi which is what you said didnt happen.
He said sniping/target firing not just killing. When you just keep Attack moving into an army with superior numbers the colossi will fall...
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On August 12 2011 12:06 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:02 Hollis wrote:On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. Do you even know I exist? Good luck getting a Neural against someone who is turtling effectively. The Toss would have to make a mistake to get good neurals. The entire point is that it is their game to lose, and not yours to win. That is a large distinction.
you dont a-move roach/corruptor against a toss turtnling effectivly either.. you expand all around the place and tech to hive. NP works fine if u have enough to buffer the infestors anyways.
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Special tactics with warp prism?? Hope so!
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On August 12 2011 12:10 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it? BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers....
Omg.............
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On August 12 2011 12:10 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it? BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers....
well, you probably dont have only BLs... and if you keep them behind your roacharmy the toss is forced to blink over your roaches and that is normally not a move you want to do unless you severly outnumber them. If you choose to not go BLs just cause the toss has Blink Id say you are losing many ZvPs nedlessly... and btw, fungal denies blink so maybe get infestors? U will already have the tech.
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On August 12 2011 12:10 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it? BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers....
LOOOOOOOL
god damn bronze league...
zergs gonna have more than just brood lords.
brood lords with just pure lings are amazing.
User was warned for this post
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Australia8532 Posts
On August 12 2011 12:08 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:07 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually. That was like the 4th engagement. Can't just ignore the ones before that. ....but that was him killing colossi which is what you said didnt happen.
Wow; sigh..
So when IdrA was ramming roaches and lings at MaNa's expansion he failed to kill off any collossi after attempting to do so a number of times. He kept attempting that flank and lowered the gateway unit numbers but MaNa could just reinforce (similar to any basic unit of any race). He sat on roach all game and wanders why he lost to tier 3 units.
After seeing the collossi he eventually built up a corruptor force; and lost the engagement and then lost the game.
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On August 12 2011 12:12 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:10 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it? BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers.... Omg.............
Yeah, I'd just ignore him.
Anyway, whitera, prism, special tactics. PEOPLE'S CHAMP
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Idra attacked with 60-70 supply lead.
But yow.. everything is fine :D
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On August 12 2011 12:10 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 12:02 Hollis wrote:On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. Do you even know I exist? Good luck getting a Neural against someone who is turtling effectively. The Toss would have to make a mistake to get good neurals. The entire point is that it is their game to lose, and not yours to win. That is a large distinction. you dont a-move roach/corruptor against a toss turtnling effectivly either.. you expand all around the place and tech to hive. NP works fine if u have enough to buffer the infestors anyways.
No, because then you won't control the Colossus numbers. That is what he was trying to do the entire game, but the combination of their range, plus massive DPS, plus force fields made it massively expensive.
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On August 12 2011 12:10 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:08 Serpico wrote:On August 12 2011 12:07 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually. That was like the 4th engagement. Can't just ignore the ones before that. ....but that was him killing colossi which is what you said didnt happen. He said sniping/target firing not just killing. When you just keep Attack moving into an army with superior numbers the colossi will fall...
So he has to kill a bunch of colossi while taking no damage or something? That's not going to happen unless the toss cant control his units.
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On August 12 2011 12:13 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:10 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 12:08 doffe wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame. Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it? BLs are terrible vs Blink stalkers.... LOOOOOOOL god damn bronze league... zergs gonna have more than just brood lords. brood lords with just pure lings are amazing.
LOLz someone who thinks they know what they are talking about.
BL + Ling would get stomped by that comp, but keep thinking that.
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On August 12 2011 12:10 Neroin wrote:
I like the mental image of Tasteless and Artosis sitting in one of their apartments casting these games because they love it. Tasteless even sounds much more relaxed than at the Gom studio which makes this cast even more enjoyable (also Artosis nice as usual). ♥
have to agree and hes dropping even more knowledge than usual. And of course his voice is just sexy
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So, good idea here, let's talk about Strelok vs White Ra and not Idra. Who gives a damn? Mana is just better right now.
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this warp prism use is soo beautiful 
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EPT
