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On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective.
Do you even know I exist?
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On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink.
The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss:
1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and,
2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay.
The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income.
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United States530 Posts
Poll: Recommend Strelok vs. WhiteRa Game 1?Yes (5) 42% If you have time (5) 42% No (2) 17% 12 total votes Your vote: Recommend Strelok vs. WhiteRa Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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On August 12 2011 11:57 Mycl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:56 Finrod1 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:54 Pervect wrote:On August 12 2011 11:53 jarrydesque wrote:
Disgusting behavior. I really do wish that there were repercussions for this sort of thing. EG gives bonuses to their players when they say something stupid or get physically injured Yeah eg can do whatever they want, but IPL just could ban idra from their league. Maybe he starts thinking then. I very much doubt idra would have said that in person. just a little pathetic nerd... So then you go on to call him names behind your keyboard. Would you say that to him in person?
If he told me to fuck myself unprovoked, I'd punch him in his face.
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Note to Terrans: Don't land your Vikings when there are 3 Colossus chilling next door.
I see what Strelok was thinking there though, landing the vikings because the Colossus weren't even engaged in the fight, figured he could ignore them since they weren't attacking. Unfortunatly for him that was all apart of White-Ra's specal tectics, epic mindgames indeed.
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Australia8532 Posts
On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income.
Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus.
But maybe that was a different game?
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On August 12 2011 12:05 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:57 Mycl wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Finrod1 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:54 Pervect wrote:On August 12 2011 11:53 jarrydesque wrote:
Disgusting behavior. I really do wish that there were repercussions for this sort of thing. EG gives bonuses to their players when they say something stupid or get physically injured Yeah eg can do whatever they want, but IPL just could ban idra from their league. Maybe he starts thinking then. I very much doubt idra would have said that in person. just a little pathetic nerd... So then you go on to call him names behind your keyboard. Would you say that to him in person? If he told me to fuck myself unprovoked, I'd punch him in his face.
Wow, you might be worse than idra.
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On August 12 2011 12:02 Hollis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. Do you even know I exist?
Good luck getting a Neural against someone who is turtling effectively. The Toss would have to make a mistake to get good neurals. The entire point is that it is their game to lose, and not yours to win. That is a large distinction.
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On August 12 2011 11:59 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:57 Mycl wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Finrod1 wrote:On August 12 2011 11:54 Pervect wrote:On August 12 2011 11:53 jarrydesque wrote:
Disgusting behavior. I really do wish that there were repercussions for this sort of thing. EG gives bonuses to their players when they say something stupid or get physically injured Yeah eg can do whatever they want, but IPL just could ban idra from their league. Maybe he starts thinking then. I very much doubt idra would have said that in person. just a little pathetic nerd... So then you go on to call him names behind your keyboard. Would you say that to him in person? Actually idra is an exception to that rule, he's known for swearing at or BM'ing people at LANS too.... I won't be surprised if one day he gets beaten up pretty bad.
Lol. Yea...
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On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game?
He killed all but one colossi at one point actually.
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Australia8532 Posts
On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually.
That was like the 4th engagement. Can't just ignore the ones before that.
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On August 12 2011 12:06 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:02 Hollis wrote:On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. Do you even know I exist? Good luck getting a Neural against someone who is turtling effectively. The Toss would have to make a mistake to get good neurals. The entire point is that it is their game to lose, and not yours to win. That is a large distinction.
try watching other zergs than idra, zvp isnt hard
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if this was played right now that everyone has figured out that it's impossible to lose versus 3base turtle I don't think mana would have gotten one game
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On August 12 2011 12:07 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually. That was like the 4th engagement. Can't just ignore the ones before that.
....but that was him killing colossi which is what you said didnt happen.
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On August 12 2011 12:07 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game? He killed all but one colossi at one point actually.
on game 5? Yeah... you're making that up
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On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income.
you are absolutely correct, a roach/hydra comp is not cost effective against toss endgame even with corruptors to handle collosi. If your gonna do this you need to keep the collosicount down alot while maintaining a supplylead. This is not something as a zergplayer you will win a majority of the games using. There is though the unit called the infestor that has proven to add cost effectivity to the zerg even in ZvP. Claiming that the zerg as a race have a hard time being costeffective is wrong, that comp is the problem and something most zergs stopped using a long time ago in lategame.
Broodlords can aswell be probably the most costeffective unit in the game... why not use it?
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On August 12 2011 11:50 Intricate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 11:47 Ruscour wrote:
I've never seen IdrA straight up "fuck you" someone before.
Well deserved win by Mana! I don't buy it, the unprovoked attack like that, idra's a smart guy he took the opportunity to build his brand IMO  ahwell
Agreed, Mana most definitely bm'ed him, hopefully we'll find out what he said exactly soon.
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it seems like zerg is turning more towards micro based strats with the deathball becoming so well refined lol. seems like you can't win without baneling drops or infestors nowadays.
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On August 12 2011 12:01 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:00 FighterHayabusa wrote:
No Zerg's are rolling over a Toss that turtles properly on 3 base. Sorry, but that just isn't true. The DPS out of the Colossus is just too much when there more than just a couple. Add to that the ability to outrange everything, and then hold them there with force fields means there isn't much that you can do. The corrupter is a pathetic unit(even dustin browder has admitted this), but you need them to kill the colossus(arguably they are bad at that too with their short range). So you end up with supply that you can't use.
Mixing in Hydras would not have changed that, at a certain point they'll have enough blink stalkers to rotate them well enough so that they are much more cost effective. lolz. I know right, look at all that PvZ dominance in the GSL, and the two best foreigner protoss that were outside of Korea losing to mediocre zergs in Code A ro32.
Lolz they aren't letting them get 3+ bases and turtle into Colossus 
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On August 12 2011 12:06 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 12:04 FighterHayabusa wrote:On August 12 2011 11:59 Heavenly wrote:On August 12 2011 11:56 Ultramus wrote:
Even though I'm fully aware these games are trash and there are way better ways to play ZvP, I still think it's pretty silly how roaches cost the same 2 food blink stalkers do when one is infinitely more effective. I think it's pretty silly how roaches cost half of what a stalker does, scales better with upgrades, and in medium-small numbers can easily win engagements. And how the race capable of getting more income much faster has such a powerful early game unit they can mass. Now you expect that unit to also be as powerful in the late-game by massing that unit solely? the reason a stalker ball wins is because of superior range in large army confrontations, not because they're better units without blink. The early game econ advantage Zerg can gain is nullified by two things for Toss: 1. Most are melee units so a wall will stop them; and, 2. Force fields will keep roaches at bay. The biggest issue for Zerg is one of cost efficacy. The problem is that this is fine in the early to mid game, but you cannot continue that economic lead into the late game. At some point you have to stop making drones or you won't have an army. That is what you saw in these games. As the game goes longer the ability to wage a battle where your units aren't cost effective declines as your opponent approaches your income. Lol i don't know what you were watching but i saw a roach ling into roach hydra against a large stalker collossus ball. I saw an infestation pit but no infestors or hive tech. I saw a 20min game with IdrA ramming roaches down MaNa's blink micro and colossus and never sniping any colossus. But maybe that was a different game?
Critically, we couldn't see this, but Apollo was saying that Idra wasn't getting the gases at his expansions and pointed that out as a mistake - which was probably the reason why Idra wasn't able to get to the more gas intensive units.
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EPT
