On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
You still don't see that many infestors used in GSL, I've been wondering why is that.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
You still don't see that many infestors used in GSL, I've been wondering why is that.
because zergs discovered baneling drops at the same time as infestors became good, I suppose. but you don't see roach/hydra any more (without drops and shit, at least) unless zerg is already at a dominant lead.
On August 10 2011 17:53 Zzoram wrote: Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time.
That would help, but beyond build time, they just don't work as well as you think. To the people who think that increased hp would help, that's not the issue in PvZ - Zerg either has Mutas (in which case your warp prism will be taken out), or they don't, in which case you'll generally escape with it.
The problem is the units that get left behind. If you use a warp prism for a round of warp-ins, most of those units are forfeit. You can only save a few on the warp prism, and Protoss units are expensive. Is stopping the Zerg from mining for 30 seconds worth losing 5-6 zealots? Because that's the kind of trade you're looking at.
i think the speed upgrade should be elsewhere. Don't know where, MAYBE cybercore. but 200/200 for bay, which opens up colossus which is good but another 200/200 for speed upgrade and takes awhile to research .
whilst warp prisms are fragile, i agree mainly with the robo time, fragility makes some sense, but the build time and its expense, is something of a huge bother.
Warp Prism speed may be the solution. In Broodwar, Shuttle speed was essential for it to get in and out of Zerg bases alive. Warp Prisms just move too slow.
The only problem is, there might not be enough gas to get that in time plus other tech and still have a standing army strong enough to not be completely overrun.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
Ladder means nothing.
It shows what each race is capable of after hundreds of games. It's still pretty important to bring up and tournament results aren't always the best when lots of shit can happen with being matched up against much better players and so forth. Top 2 last GSL were zergs, does that mean zerg is the best race? Before that it was like 8 terrans, and then before that it was pretty even but nestea won against a protoss. Shit changes month to month in the GSL.
That's because the metagame changes month to month, ladder means absolutely nothing because it's people screwing around and trying new builds. Nony is lower on the ladder than combat-ex- but would you say combat-ex- is better than nony? I highly doubt it.
On ladder, it's all about whoever is actually trying the hardest which most people aren't. If you really want an idea of balance it would come from practice games because those are played en masse and are people actually trying.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third?
and what I meant with my previous post is that the robo tech tree was very fleshed out and you knew pretty much exactly how much you could or couldn't get away with, what corners you could cut and when, etc. but now all of that knowledge is gone, so it makes sense that without the corner cutting and the solid timings protoss might fall behind.
imagine if a zerg travelled back in time to when 14/14 ling bane was the only ZvZ build - he would wreck face, not because of buffs to the roach or things like that but because he knew how to get away with a hatch first by cutting some corners and having good timing. however, someone trying to 15 hatch or do roach builds back then looked sort of silly because it wasn't figured out at all. mirror matchups aren't a great example but it's all I got
Lol all the foreigners lost? I saw that coming. Maybe after a 3+ months of practice they can try again and get a lucky run to Code A. But until then I wouldn't expect much out of them!
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third?
Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third.
Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs
so much for that, they'd better step it up on the team league at least, or else liquipedia is going to have to remove the moniker of mercenaries and list them as mall cops :/. If all else fails they will be demoted next to hall monitors
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
Ladder means nothing.
It shows what each race is capable of after hundreds of games. It's still pretty important to bring up and tournament results aren't always the best when lots of shit can happen with being matched up against much better players and so forth. Top 2 last GSL were zergs, does that mean zerg is the best race? Before that it was like 8 terrans, and then before that it was pretty even but nestea won against a protoss. Shit changes month to month in the GSL.
That's because the metagame changes month to month, ladder means absolutely nothing because it's people screwing around and trying new builds. Nony is lower on the ladder than combat-ex- but would you say combat-ex- is better than nony? I highly doubt it.
On ladder, it's all about whoever is actually trying the hardest which most people aren't. If you really want an idea of balance it would come from practice games because those are played en masse and are people actually trying.
umm, if you're under the impression that everyone just fucks around on ladder then you're completely wrong. Ladder is definitely not the place you want to test build orders when you could end up playing against someone who could leak replays to their teammate if they have an upcoming match. If you watch some streams then they actually do play pretty legit games for the most part. The games are just more so on a whim rather than having set, prepared builds and studying up on your opponent.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third?
Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third.
Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs
is there a reason why a turtle style of play can't keep up though? if you see zerg getting a fast third, it means his lair is delayed so roach speed/muta/hydra/drop/nydus/infestors are all delayed and you don't need to worry about them until a little later than usual. without roach speed or drop or nydus it's very, very hard to put pressure on a protoss with good simcity, so I'm wondering if you can be a little greedier.
I guess part of the problem is that until colossus/storm protoss really doesn't have anything which can kill lings without them getting away relatively unscathed... forcefields are nice but against speedlings they're a little eh.
On August 10 2011 17:53 Zzoram wrote: Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time.
That would help, but beyond build time, they just don't work as well as you think. To the people who think that increased hp would help, that's not the issue in PvZ - Zerg either has Mutas (in which case your warp prism will be taken out), or they don't, in which case you'll generally escape with it.
The problem is the units that get left behind. If you use a warp prism for a round of warp-ins, most of those units are forfeit. You can only save a few on the warp prism, and Protoss units are expensive. Is stopping the Zerg from mining for 30 seconds worth losing 5-6 zealots? Because that's the kind of trade you're looking at.
terrans do it all the time, 100 gas for medicvac and lots of marines in it for a fresh suicide run. i still think its one of the most unexplored units currently.
for e.g, i see so many toss's complain about terrans 1-1-1 timing push, and yet not one of them makes a warp prism to drop zealots in terran base while hes siegeing up outside your expo..
against Z, not every z goes muta, so you could use them. Even if they do go muta, its possible to hide them and wait for the flock to be out of position, the great thing about the prisim is that you can move it out with 0 units, find a safe place, warp in a round of maybe hightemplars or zealot, then fly it off to someway safe and wait for a key moment to use it.
like for instance, Zergs are currently doing that, they wait for toss to be fully ingauged with fighting, then drop banelings on their probe lines..
If zealots were as good as marines at sniping drones, that might be a good tactic. But they aren't. - even with charge, they're not very good at chasing down drones. Nor are they as good as stimmed marauders in taking down buildings.
The best use for zealots in a warp prism is sniping hatcheries and exploiting the lack of multi-task from the opponent. In this capacity they have some use. But to snipe a hatchery, the Zerg has to be way out of position, and to exploit lack of multi-task, you typically need more than one warp prism, which people are loath to build because if getting even one is an issue, then getting two is a problem.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third?
Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third.
Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs
is there a reason why a turtle style of play can't keep up though? if you see zerg getting a fast third, it means his lair is delayed so roach speed/muta/hydra/drop/nydus/infestors are all delayed and you don't need to worry about them until a little later than usual. without roach speed or drop or nydus it's very, very hard to put pressure on a protoss with good simcity, so I'm wondering if you can be a little greedier.
I guess part of the problem is that until colossus/storm protoss really doesn't have anything which can kill lings without them getting away relatively unscathed... forcefields are nice but against speedlings they're a little eh.
It works occasionaly, but if you use it too often zerg will learn to cut corners because they know you are not going to pressure. Geoff touched on this on tonights Inside the game.
On August 10 2011 17:53 Zzoram wrote: Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time.
That would help, but beyond build time, they just don't work as well as you think. To the people who think that increased hp would help, that's not the issue in PvZ - Zerg either has Mutas (in which case your warp prism will be taken out), or they don't, in which case you'll generally escape with it.
The problem is the units that get left behind. If you use a warp prism for a round of warp-ins, most of those units are forfeit. You can only save a few on the warp prism, and Protoss units are expensive. Is stopping the Zerg from mining for 30 seconds worth losing 5-6 zealots? Because that's the kind of trade you're looking at.
terrans do it all the time, 100 gas for medicvac and lots of marines in it for a fresh suicide run. i still think its one of the most unexplored units currently.
for e.g, i see so many toss's complain about terrans 1-1-1 timing push, and yet not one of them makes a warp prism to drop zealots in terran base while hes siegeing up outside your expo..
against Z, not every z goes muta, so you could use them. Even if they do go muta, its possible to hide them and wait for the flock to be out of position, the great thing about the prisim is that you can move it out with 0 units, find a safe place, warp in a round of maybe hightemplars or zealot, then fly it off to someway safe and wait for a key moment to use it.
like for instance, Zergs are currently doing that, they wait for toss to be fully ingauged with fighting, then drop banelings on their probe lines..
If zealots were like marines, I'd agree with you, but they aren't. Even with charge, they're not very good at chasing down drones. Nor are they as good as stimmed marauders in taking down buildings.
The best use for zealots in a warp prism is sniping hatcheries and exploiting the lack of multi-task from the opponent. In this capacity they have some use. But to snipe a hatchery, the Zerg has to be way out of position, and to exploit lack of multi-task, you typically need more than one warp prism, which people are loath to build because if getting even one is an issue, then getting two is a problem.
counterattacking when your enemy is out of position (or rather, attacking) is something terran (and more zergs nowadays) do all the time. you say it like being out of position is a mistake when in reality if zerg ever attacks you can fly those zealots in and harass (unless there's static defense present). four zealots with upgrades can actually kill shit pretty darn fast.
On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote: At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance.
If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things.
Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it.
to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into.
colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff.
I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around.
around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third?
Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third.
Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs
is there a reason why a turtle style of play can't keep up though? if you see zerg getting a fast third, it means his lair is delayed so roach speed/muta/hydra/drop/nydus/infestors are all delayed and you don't need to worry about them until a little later than usual. without roach speed or drop or nydus it's very, very hard to put pressure on a protoss with good simcity, so I'm wondering if you can be a little greedier.
I guess part of the problem is that until colossus/storm protoss really doesn't have anything which can kill lings without them getting away relatively unscathed... forcefields are nice but against speedlings they're a little eh.
It works occasionaly, but if you use it too often zerg will learn to cut corners because they know you are not going to pressure. Geoff touched on this on tonights Inside the game.
well yeah, there's always somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors aspect but what you're talking about is metagaming your opponent, not balance within the game. there might also be undiscovered timings with the new archon/ht type stuff. look at PvZ of olde, mutalisks were used quite frequently and a lot of protoss thought it was imbaimbaimba - then 6gate was discovered and zergs couldnt really do that safely anymore, at least without investing a ton into static defense
correct me if I'm wrong, but with good hallucination scouting you can even 6gate as a reaction to spire can you not? I think there might be undiscovered "oh he's doing this I can go fucking kill him now" attacks which will change the state of PvZ.
EPT
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