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On August 10 2011 17:43 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere. I assume it's because roaming zerglings can easily pick off stray pylons I do think that warp prisms have potential though. They should get an HP boost or something though, they're made of glass as it stands.
Well having zealots killing expansions all around the map should keep the Zerg busy defending, if Zerg makes a lot of Spines, then you can just go in with Phoenixes to pick up all the lings. I don't know where this mentality of "Oh, I can't do anything to stop them from macroing, so I just sit in my base and build 170 food army and amove" has come from. It worked a while ago but it has been figured out. Time for Protoss to evolve their game now.
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i think the answer to PvZ is warp prism harass or buff to this unit , but dont take my word on it . Im pretty sure some hightemplar storm drops with maybe a speed prisim if used effectively mid/late game can wreck some econs.
anyway, on another point i want to make, is about the protoss vs terran matchup, right now the results are being masked by the 1-1-1 all in's terran's are doing, but just wait and see, when that gets figured out , bio play against toss is a joke. mass zeals/templars&archon/colosus to strong. thats why every terran is doing ALL in's, because its just stupid to play late game against toss.
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Really disappointing today. It's a little embarrassing to see 5 out of 5 foreigners out in the Ro32. )=
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On August 10 2011 17:47 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:43 Zzoram wrote:On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere. I assume it's because roaming zerglings can easily pick off stray pylons I do think that warp prisms have potential though. They should get an HP boost or something though, they're made of glass as it stands. Well having zealots killing expansions all around the map should keep the Zerg busy defending, if Zerg makes a lot of Spines, then you can just go in with Phoenixes to pick up all the lings. I don't know where this mentality of "Oh, I can't do anything to stop them from macroing, so I just sit in my base and build 170 food army and amove" has come from. It worked a while ago but it has been figured out. Time for Protoss to evolve their game now.
Please explain how you will pick up 'all the lings', lol
Zealot squads work but they work better when your opponent is more spread out and doesn't have creep covering their convenient bases. You just get a bunch of roaches or lings split off and that's that :<
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On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere.
plyons arent overlords, they cant move away (even if slowly) when they are being attacked. plyons also cant fly so they can be picked off by zerglings (which are cheap) where's overlords can be placed over cliffs and can only be killed by stalkers ( which kill stuffs shit slow and cost a shit load compared to a zergling).
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PvZ is what I least care about, actually. Protosses whining about Zergs being too strong and Zergs whining about Protosses being too strong are both being dumb because, at this point, looking at the winrate graph (http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png), I'm able to put my personal biases as a Protoss player aside and see that the metagame for PvZ simply shifts all the time. The statement about Z struggling for 3 months against P is a complete lie (and I love it when people lie like that, because the graph is right there to objectively back me up) - the longest Z has ever struggled against P is for 2 months (december to the beginning of februrary).
One thing that worries me a bit is that Z just came off of 2 months of having an advantage against Protoss, the metagame equalized, and Z is now at the advantage again - not the usual trend of advantages doing complete 180s. Still, it's clear that the advantage shifts heavily enough in the MU (though, clearly more in Z's favor than P's favor so I have zero idea what Zerg players are complaining about - likely it's their personal experience coloring their opinions rather than what actually goes on at the highest level in Korea where balance should be determined).
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On August 10 2011 17:27 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation  I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/ Well, it should look like that given the fact that the Protoss deadball is unbeatable for zerg. But it seems like P can't get there anymore and get slaughtered late midgame. But it isn't supposed to be that P is on equal foot with Z through the game, due to the P 200 deadball. I would like to remind everybody that Z struggled for more than 3 months against P. Maps like Jungle Basin, DQ, Close Positions meta, Lost Temple and the easy FFE 3 base shakuras were a big factor in that domination of course. But Protoss told us to fuck off. Multiple times. Everywhere. It will change back around. Z and P will be screwed at turns. T just laughs and wins tournaments. But don't forget about that joke based on truth from some months ago. + Show Spoiler +2 Protoss players walk in a bar and sit down. They are playing a final.
Protoss was never dominating Zerg, it only looked like that because of Idra and his fanboys.
The 200/200 deathball is stoppable, very easily actually, if you don't go roach/hydra.
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One does not simply advance in code A it seems.
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Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time.
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Just wanted to point this out, but I think Wolf is really good at casting with anyone. I mean Doa and Wolf is very solid. Moletrap and Wolf today was good too. Wolf and QXC, or Wolf and Unstable. Wolf is alot like Tasteless in that you can put him next to anyone and the chemistry will likely be there.
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On August 10 2011 17:52 valaki wrote:
One does not simply advance in code A it seems.
Shame, it's a subpar tournament with player having copper league mechanics.
/sarcasm
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On August 10 2011 17:53 Zzoram wrote:
Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time.
wrong. nobody builds them because they're fragile - and there are no good harrass units that compliment them well. their build time is just fine.
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On August 10 2011 17:44 MandoRelease wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:29 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 17:22 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/ The PvZ metagame seems pretty awful at the moment... Dt and stargate openings seem so easy to deflect while taking 3 bases and then the only option of not falling really far behind is some sort of blink stalker timing attack. It's just so funny how people seem to forget that there was a time when Zerg couldn't win over Protoss seemingly anyhow. Now the metagame has switched and people just need to figure stuff out again. Less crying, more thinking. Guess the Protoss masses need their own Nestea/Losira coming and showing how the match-up is dealt with. Yeah, that's why I specifically stated metagame over just the matchup in general. It's really a lot about the openers right now in every matchup. No, seriously. when Zergs were losing against protoss it was because they kept going roach/hydra in every single game and didnt know how to inject properly. These days, you basicly see every single protoss build get smashed to the ground. F-FE, 1gate expo, Stargate, DT, Blink stalkers, it all gets teared apart. What do you expect protoss players to do, come up with new strategies that involve new units that dont even exist? BTW dont forget that zerg actually recived buffs. Lets not pretend it was only because of a so called "metagame shift" My, my. Zerg keep going roaches/hydra, only now they know how to use them properly. About that inject comment, one could argue that protoss don't know how to use chronoboost properly. See how retarded that sounds ? Jesus. Zerg came up with strategies that doesn't involve new units. Just old ones but used differently. Stop being so pessimistic and whiny. Essentially what zergs did was to delay tech a lot and stay on hatchery tech a long time, while protoss just keep teching really fast. I can't pretend to know what protoss need to do, just don't say there's nothing they can do. A few month ago, I believe it was MVP (not sure about that tho) who said in an artosis interview that Terran felt the weakest. Things change. Stop whining.
So what you are basicly saying is "i dont know shit about protoss, but theres gotta be something they can do. i dont know how or what, but theres gotta be something!".
First of all, Protoss never dominated Zerg. it just looked like tha cause MC had a couple of good runs in the GSL and a popular member of the SC2 community liked to complain about protoss because he had problems with the matchup.
Now, as you said yourself, Zerg didnt need any new unit (aside from fungual buff basicly turning the infestor into a new unit) because they already had a large part of their tech/units unexplored.
Protoss on the other hand, has tried pretty much everything, including crazy new shit thats never been tried before, with no luck.
With the current state of protoss in the GSL, its pretty natural to be pessimistic if you are a big protoss fan (like i am).
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On August 10 2011 17:54 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, but I think Wolf is really good at casting with anyone. I mean Doa and Wolf is very solid. Moletrap and Wolf today was good too. Wolf and QXC, or Wolf and Unstable. Wolf is alot like Tasteless in that you can put him next and the chemistry will be there.
Ya I like Wolf, he seems to be a good parter for anyone.
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On August 10 2011 17:52 HolyArrow wrote:
PvZ is what I least care about, actually. Protosses whining about Zergs being too strong and Zergs whining about Protosses being too strong are both being dumb because, at this point, looking at the winrate graph (http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png), I'm able to put my personal biases as a Protoss player aside and see that the metagame for PvZ simply shifts all the time.
I think the source of the complaints here is that every time the results shift, it's because P pulls out a new timing or source of harass that Zs aren't that stable against. With infestors buffed and Zs kind of figuring out how to handle all sorts of aggression and harass, P players are feeling out of options compared to, 'well this is getting figured out, let's try this instead'.
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On August 10 2011 17:47 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:43 Zzoram wrote:On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere. I assume it's because roaming zerglings can easily pick off stray pylons I do think that warp prisms have potential though. They should get an HP boost or something though, they're made of glass as it stands. Well having zealots killing expansions all around the map should keep the Zerg busy defending, if Zerg makes a lot of Spines, then you can just go in with Phoenixes to pick up all the lings. I don't know where this mentality of "Oh, I can't do anything to stop them from macroing, so I just sit in my base and build 170 food army and amove" has come from. It worked a while ago but it has been figured out. Time for Protoss to evolve their game now.
Trickster vs Losira on metalopolis was one of the best displays of P multi-prong attacks I've prob ever seen. It was pretty brutal. Might just be a map specific strat though.
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On August 10 2011 17:54 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, but I think Wolf is really good at casting with anyone. I mean Doa and Wolf is very solid. Moletrap and Wolf today was good too. Wolf and QXC, or Wolf and Unstable. Wolf is alot like Tasteless in that you can put him next to anyone and the chemistry will likely be there.
Tasteless and Kelly... I wasn't feeling it at all 
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On August 10 2011 17:54 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, but I think Wolf is really good at casting with anyone. I mean Doa and Wolf is very solid. Moletrap and Wolf today was good too. Wolf and QXC, or Wolf and Unstable. Wolf is alot like Tasteless in that you can put him next to anyone and the chemistry will likely be there.
How dare you post something else than balance crap!! Shame on you! This stuff should really get moderated out here!
Also yeah, I agree with you. Woff is good.
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On August 10 2011 17:55 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:47 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:43 Zzoram wrote:On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere. I assume it's because roaming zerglings can easily pick off stray pylons I do think that warp prisms have potential though. They should get an HP boost or something though, they're made of glass as it stands. Well having zealots killing expansions all around the map should keep the Zerg busy defending, if Zerg makes a lot of Spines, then you can just go in with Phoenixes to pick up all the lings. I don't know where this mentality of "Oh, I can't do anything to stop them from macroing, so I just sit in my base and build 170 food army and amove" has come from. It worked a while ago but it has been figured out. Time for Protoss to evolve their game now. Trickster vs Losira on metalopolis was one of the best displays of P multi-prong attacks I've prob ever seen. It was pretty brutal. Might just be a map specific strat though.
What did he do? What map?
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On August 10 2011 17:55 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:54 Spicy Pepper wrote:
Just wanted to point this out, but I think Wolf is really good at casting with anyone. I mean Doa and Wolf is very solid. Moletrap and Wolf today was good too. Wolf and QXC, or Wolf and Unstable. Wolf is alot like Tasteless in that you can put him next to anyone and the chemistry will likely be there. Tasteless and Kelly... I wasn't feeling it at all
Even Michael Jordan couldn't win when he played for the Wizards.
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EPT
