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On August 10 2011 17:27 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation  I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/ Well, it should look like that given the fact that the Protoss deadball is unbeatable for zerg. But it seems like P can't get there anymore and get slaughtered late midgame. But it isn't supposed to be that P is on equal foot with Z through the game, due to the P 200 deadball. I would like to remind everybody that Z struggled for more than 3 months against P. Maps like Jungle Basin, DQ, Close Positions meta, Lost Temple and the easy FFE 3 base shakuras were a big factor in that domination of course. But Protoss told us to fuck off. Multiple times. Everywhere. It will change back around. Z and P will be screwed at turns. T just laughs and wins tournaments. But don't forget about that joke based on truth from some months ago. + Show Spoiler +2 Protoss players walk in a bar and sit down. They are playing a final.
....Where do you see Z struggling for more than 3 months at a time against P? In IdrA's mind?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252090
Z has historically been at the very least on equal footing with P in that particular matchup.
And stop pretending like Blizzard hasn't been nerfing T and P for a while now.
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Foreigners today didn't do well. Oh well. I thought at least one of them could beat some Koreans. They can't.
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On August 10 2011 17:35 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:32 skrzmark wrote:
I think protoss should take more hidden expansions. They should make a stargate let it be scouted while you have 3 proxy gates by your 3rd then cancel the stargate after you kill the overlord scout and 6 gate push them. Maybe protoss needs Kydarian Amulet back??? Amulet existing in the current metagame certainly wouldn't feel as overpowered as it did a few months ago. I think Blizzard doens't want to do any balance patches until HotS is out, so Protoss will just have to deal with it for now.
Well if thats the truth, it might be better for some players if they just switched race until HotS is out. i heard MC has a pretty solid Terran
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On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3
I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend.
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What is this Death Ball zergs speak of? Doesn't seem to exist anymore in my opinion.
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On August 10 2011 17:35 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:32 skrzmark wrote:
I think protoss should take more hidden expansions. They should make a stargate let it be scouted while you have 3 proxy gates by your 3rd then cancel the stargate after you kill the overlord scout and 6 gate push them. Maybe protoss needs Kydarian Amulet back??? Amulet existing in the current metagame certainly wouldn't feel as overpowered as it did a few months ago. I think Blizzard doens't want to do any balance patches until HotS is out, so Protoss will just have to deal with it for now.
I don't see how KA would help that much except guarantee more wins if you can make it to a certain point in the game... Hts with KA were overpowered, you just can't compare the other 2 energy upgrades for the other 2 races when you're on gateways and they can turn into archons (which were buffed since then mind you). The problem right now in the metagame is not being able to defend 1 base terran pushes effectively enough if you don't know it's coming like literally 2 minutes into the game, and falling really far behind zerg in econ.
I'm not a protoss player and I'm not complaining since I think it's too early to start making changes, but it's obvious what protoss players are having troubles with right now.
Also might have to do with the later warpgate tech research because now 4 gate isn't as good anymore against the other races (or maybe a protoss player could actually correct me on this if it's still just as good/bad as it once was).
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On August 10 2011 17:34 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:31 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:28 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:24 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:19 Grettin wrote:
Interesting to see that the Swedish "superduo" Naniwa & Thorzain, didn't perform that well when they "had" to.
Still hoping and waiting for Jinro's epic "comeback" though. He did it once so he can do it again.
e. well, maybe comeback isn't the correct word here. But the same success he had couple seasons ago. 8) They did perform well. the reason they lost was (probably) 1. meta-game 2. sleep schedule, time zone change 3. MAPS statisticly, any terran/protoss was expected to lose on these maps. when you make checkprime look like a solid, well executing player, then something is wrong. i honestly did not expect to see him win a game ever again Well, the thing is check prime IS a solid player otherwise he wouldnt be in the Code A of GSL wich is basicly the second most competetive league in the world. i know some of you people like to act as if Code A is some kind of special school for retarded kids, but thats just not the case. He only fell to Code A last season, so yeah he's still pretty much up there Top25 in Korea. lol'd at top 25. he's the bottom barrel of code a at best. look at his results and watch his play. it's objective.
He's not top 25 but saying "He's bottom barrel of code a at best" is still saying he's one of the top 60 or so players in the world. And apparently better at the moment than the best non-Korean trained foreigners.
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Edit : Nvm, bad understanding.
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PvZ is strange. What's a good build nowadays? Forge FE seems to actually put Protoss behind economically, Stargate and DT do as well. Pressuring with 2 gates?
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On August 10 2011 17:23 LeaD wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:19 NExt wrote:On August 10 2011 17:18 LeaD wrote:On August 10 2011 17:17 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:14 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:10 Serpico wrote:On August 10 2011 17:08 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 17:04 Serpico wrote:On August 10 2011 17:02 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 16:59 Serpico wrote:
[quote]
How can you say he didnt accomplish anything? Are you people really so critical that you think if you dont win GSLs anything you do is meaningless? You wouldnt have a scene if people said fuck it because they couldnt win it all. Again, you can't compare time periods because they're inherently different. You can't compare athletes from 40 years ago to ones now and say "LOL those shitty players in the 19xxs are garbage their accomplishments mean nothing." You might as well kick everyone out of every hall of fame every 10 years to make way for the new era of players. We might as well say what jinro did and what huk is doing dont mean shit unless they win a GSL. It's ignorant to think that. They were good back THEN, but you can't use that as a god damn argument to say they're good now and can compete now. There's no doubt in anyone's mind that the level of competition in the GSL is several leagues higher than it once was, and some code A players could probably seriously decimate the code S level players of back then. It's also obvious that some players, especially idra, hasn't improved much at all since then, but it's not just idra obviously. I'm using it to say they've shown results...and Idra is still good now, to say otherwise it just blind hate really. If idra hasnt improved why can he even finish relatively good in the last couple of MLGs? Just stop making excuses. What the hell makes you think he's good enough to even barely scrape the bottom of code S right now? good MLG results? He was behind like 6 players who weren't even in code A this last MLG. Naniwa had good MLG results AND good foreign results but until you actually start beating koreans consistently it's just better to assume you're not at that level yet. "Good foreign results" or "good results for a foreigner" means shit right now. Players like fucking hongun play at the bottom of code S. I'd take naniwa/huk/idra etc over him. what's with the hongun hate. he's managed to stay in code s every single season. round of 8, round of 4. you're just mad. Its part of the protoss hate-campaign. You need to call out all the protoss players for being bad/dumb, or it will make it look like there might be some balance problems when protoss gets raped in every matchup. the worst thing is that part of the slander might actually be justified. That build from MC in the first game really had me scratching my head. Hallucinate against a player with a Raven? He even saw the Raven pop out with his observer. Does the a+move AI automatically stop bugging out of the attacking units when hallucination is detected or are the hallucinations still taking some shots? cause that might've been part of the thinking I don't think the hallucinations take any hits except for the initial tank volley since they rush in first and maybe the Raven isn't positioned properly, but otherwise they were useless :/. MVP played very greedy early, he really should have attempted to punish that.
What with?
The only way Protoss can punish early expands is by all-ining for the most part, and gasless FE works well against most of them, including 4gate.
On August 10 2011 17:41 Zzoram wrote:
PvZ is strange. What's a good build nowadays? Forge FE seems to actually put Protoss behind economically, Stargate and DT do as well. Pressuring with 2 gates?
I think 1gate FE is the best opening when you can get away with it. Not sure what works best after that, keep hoping for GSL to show me the way :<
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On August 10 2011 17:36 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:20 Spicy Pepper wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 jinixxx123 wrote:On August 10 2011 17:09 Zzoram wrote:On August 10 2011 17:08 CruelZeratul wrote:
After HuKs inevitable loss in Code S there will be no foreigners and nearly no Protosses left in GSL this season, so hardly any reason for me to watch it. Hope September is getting better. You're kidding right? Nestea vs MVP should be siiiick MMA vs Polt should be great too The winner of this GSL Code S will likely be one of those 4. seeing MMA manhandle nestea on zergpolis yesterday so bad with the current state of TvZ and also showing such an impressive TVT i think MMA has this one in the bag, If not mma then definately MVP is going to win this gsl. Both of them are simply not humans, they are machines. Ppl will sight it as terran being imba, but thats a load of bullshit. Playing T is incredibly hard right now. Anyway, to be on topic, truely a sad day for sweden esports, they looked terrible out their tonight, i think thorzain was the only one a who managed to take a single game, everything else was EZ 2-0 victories for koreans. You guys truely need to step it up, its not about mass practicing but quality practice with reasons why you lost a particular game. No player is so good that you can just say he has a GSL in the bag. That's basically what a bonjwa is. Nestea is the closest to that, but I wouldn't think he's going to automatically win this, especially considering that he might lose in the next round to MVP. MMA won a game of Nestea, great for him. But the next time they meet up, Nestea will have time to prepare specifically for MMA. MMA's success so far has been at MLG and in team leagues, where you have game after game, rather than having prepared for a specific opponent. Super tournament finalist what?
:p oh yeah forgot, doh. I think he only played TvT's in that, but yeah he deserves credit for that.
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On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend.
Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere.
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omg I didn't really expect too much from foreigners but I sure hoped they would do better than this... QQ At least Thorzain took one game, but it's a very small compensation 
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On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere.
I assume it's because roaming zerglings can easily pick off stray pylons
I do think that warp prisms have potential though. They should get an HP boost or something though, they're made of glass as it stands.
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On August 10 2011 17:41 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:34 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:28 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:24 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:19 Grettin wrote:
Interesting to see that the Swedish "superduo" Naniwa & Thorzain, didn't perform that well when they "had" to.
Still hoping and waiting for Jinro's epic "comeback" though. He did it once so he can do it again.
e. well, maybe comeback isn't the correct word here. But the same success he had couple seasons ago. 8) They did perform well. the reason they lost was (probably) 1. meta-game 2. sleep schedule, time zone change 3. MAPS statisticly, any terran/protoss was expected to lose on these maps. when you make checkprime look like a solid, well executing player, then something is wrong. i honestly did not expect to see him win a game ever again Well, the thing is check prime IS a solid player otherwise he wouldnt be in the Code A of GSL wich is basicly the second most competetive league in the world. i know some of you people like to act as if Code A is some kind of special school for retarded kids, but thats just not the case. He only fell to Code A last season, so yeah he's still pretty much up there Top25 in Korea. lol'd at top 25. he's the bottom barrel of code a at best. look at his results and watch his play. it's objective. He's not top 25 but saying "He's bottom barrel of code a at best" is still saying he's one of the top 60 or so players in the world. And apparently better at the moment than the best non-Korean trained foreigners.
no saying at best means he's between 60-100. yah i was just proving a point against the foreigners. do you guys remember check playing? it was honestly horrible. what are some good wins he's had? you cant just say oh he was code s herp he's super good. you have to look at the results.
it's like saying oh idra did so much better than huk (placing 5th and 12th). however, they both got knocked out by mc (hypothetical situation).
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On August 10 2011 17:29 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 17:22 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/ The PvZ metagame seems pretty awful at the moment... Dt and stargate openings seem so easy to deflect while taking 3 bases and then the only option of not falling really far behind is some sort of blink stalker timing attack. It's just so funny how people seem to forget that there was a time when Zerg couldn't win over Protoss seemingly anyhow. Now the metagame has switched and people just need to figure stuff out again. Less crying, more thinking. Guess the Protoss masses need their own Nestea/Losira coming and showing how the match-up is dealt with. Yeah, that's why I specifically stated metagame over just the matchup in general. It's really a lot about the openers right now in every matchup. No, seriously. when Zergs were losing against protoss it was because they kept going roach/hydra in every single game and didnt know how to inject properly. These days, you basicly see every single protoss build get smashed to the ground. F-FE, 1gate expo, Stargate, DT, Blink stalkers, it all gets teared apart. What do you expect protoss players to do, come up with new strategies that involve new units that dont even exist? BTW dont forget that zerg actually recived buffs. Lets not pretend it was only because of a so called "metagame shift"
My, my. Zerg keep going roaches/hydra, only now they know how to use them properly. About that inject comment, one could argue that protoss don't know how to use chronoboost properly.
See how retarded that sounds ? Jesus. Zerg came up with strategies that doesn't involve new units. Just old ones but used differently. Stop being so pessimistic and whiny. Essentially what zergs did was to delay tech a lot and stay on hatchery tech a long time, while protoss just keep teching really fast. I can't pretend to know what protoss need to do, just don't say there's nothing they can do.
A few month ago, I believe it was MVP (not sure about that tho) who said in an artosis interview that Terran felt the weakest. Things change. Stop whining.
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On August 10 2011 17:42 namste wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend. Well, in the Sage vs Sirius game back in GSTL. The Zerg got absolutely demolished by constant Zealot warpings and Phoenix harrashment. I just don't understand why exactly Protosses don't warp stuff all around the map, they have this amazing warpgate ability but yet they dont make a single pylon outside their base unless they're pushing out or proxying a building somewhere.
Same reason Zerg doesn't 'just use more nydus', it's theoretical at best. Warping all over the map is cute but doesn't actually give you map control, and sending 1 warpin wave into the maw of roaches and speedlings on creep doesn't really work imo. P relies on having a ball of units to get cost effectiveness.
If Sage can get back out there and keep showing that style though, I'm going to be taking notes.
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On August 10 2011 17:38 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:32 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 Zzoram wrote:
Terrans and Zergs have both been dominating with multiprong attacks. Protoss still has the deathball mentality. Maybe with more multiprong attacks, Protoss can be more successful. Thank you for being smart and thinking the same as me <3 I don't want to join the protoss whining but both terran and zerg have alot more mobile and better harass units to do multipronged attack with. Zealots are slow and can more or less never be saved when the opponent actually comes to defend. A group of lings is easier to get out AND isn't as costly. Marine+Marauder drops can be saved and can even take out protoss defences if there's not a big number of zealots there do defend.
Good Protoss harass is just a lot harder to pull off. A warp prism can only carry a few Protoss units, and a few Protoss units isn't generally going to be able to do any significant damage to a Zerg before he cleans up with his high mobility. If your response to this is: build more warp prisms, I'd like to point out that warp prisms, unlike medivacs and overlords, eat up your supply without adding to your army strength.
Also, Protoss doesn't have strong mid-game harass units like banelings, blue flame hellions, and MMM. The best that Protoss has is blink stalkers and void ray + phoenix, and for a while that worked. Once Zerg figured out that building a few more queens and then getting a few hydras stops the air style cold, though, harass options have become even more limited for Protoss.
Basically, right now you have blink stalkers, and the problem with blink stalkers is that in small numbers they do very little damage, and if you're using large numbers of blink stalkers to harass, you open yourself to counter-attack.
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Well... that was pretty awful to watch :|
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On August 10 2011 17:44 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:41 tripper688 wrote:On August 10 2011 17:34 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 17:31 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:28 akalarry wrote:On August 10 2011 17:24 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:19 Grettin wrote:
Interesting to see that the Swedish "superduo" Naniwa & Thorzain, didn't perform that well when they "had" to.
Still hoping and waiting for Jinro's epic "comeback" though. He did it once so he can do it again.
e. well, maybe comeback isn't the correct word here. But the same success he had couple seasons ago. 8) They did perform well. the reason they lost was (probably) 1. meta-game 2. sleep schedule, time zone change 3. MAPS statisticly, any terran/protoss was expected to lose on these maps. when you make checkprime look like a solid, well executing player, then something is wrong. i honestly did not expect to see him win a game ever again Well, the thing is check prime IS a solid player otherwise he wouldnt be in the Code A of GSL wich is basicly the second most competetive league in the world. i know some of you people like to act as if Code A is some kind of special school for retarded kids, but thats just not the case. He only fell to Code A last season, so yeah he's still pretty much up there Top25 in Korea. lol'd at top 25. he's the bottom barrel of code a at best. look at his results and watch his play. it's objective. He's not top 25 but saying "He's bottom barrel of code a at best" is still saying he's one of the top 60 or so players in the world. And apparently better at the moment than the best non-Korean trained foreigners. no saying at best means he's between 60-100. yah i was just proving a point against the foreigners. do you guys remember check playing? it was honestly horrible. what are some good wins he's had? you cant just say oh he was code s herp he's super good. you have to look at the results. it's like saying oh idra did so much better than huk (placing 5th and 12th). however, they both got knocked out by mc (hypothetical situation).
I'm not saying Check is awesome. I've repeatedly said that, for a Korean pro, he is mediocre. The point is, mediocre Korean = top 100 world which means he's really not a bad player in his own right considering the amount of both Korean and foreign pros below him at the moment.
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EPT
