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On August 10 2011 16:34 TheSilverfox wrote:
This is quite sad. Our dear Swedish vikings god slayed by Korean samurais.
But, they will come back stronger than ever. I believe!
Korean samurais? Oh god the ignorance in that statement makes me cringe.
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On August 10 2011 18:25 ct2299 wrote:
Where are all the bandwagon Thorzain fans that said Thorzain could dominate Code A based on his results in TSL?
L O L.
Thorzain was the only foreigner that took a game of a Korean today
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not really a sad day they all pretty much only got to Korea the day before and had delays etc in airports etc so this was really bad timing.... Hope they stick aorund for next code A and manage to do well.
Even Koreans play abd when they dont haev time to prepare etc, Thorzain in his interview even said he hopes to win just so he can prepare for the next round.
HOpe they improvelots and do well,. just seems a bummer that all that way and other then the GSTL they wont really play in another big tournament in Korea till september... thatsd if they even requalify for Code A 
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On August 10 2011 18:12 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:10 namste wrote:On August 10 2011 18:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:
At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance. If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things. Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it. to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into. colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff. You still don't see that many infestors used in GSL, I've been wondering why is that. because zergs discovered baneling drops at the same time as infestors became good, I suppose. but you don't see roach/hydra any more (without drops and shit, at least) unless zerg is already at a dominant lead.
We don't see that many drops by Z in GSL either for some reason.
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On August 10 2011 17:27 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation  I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/ Well, it should look like that given the fact that the Protoss deadball is unbeatable for zerg. But it seems like P can't get there anymore and get slaughtered late midgame. But it isn't supposed to be that P is on equal foot with Z through the game, due to the P 200 deadball. I would like to remind everybody that Z struggled for more than 3 months against P. Maps like Jungle Basin, DQ, Close Positions meta, Lost Temple and the easy FFE 3 base shakuras were a big factor in that domination of course. But Protoss told us to fuck off. Multiple times. Everywhere. It will change back around. Z and P will be screwed at turns. T just laughs and wins tournaments. But don't forget about that joke based on truth from some months ago. + Show Spoiler +2 Protoss players walk in a bar and sit down. They are playing a final.
Not really, you whined and cried and whined and cried like little school girls and you got infestor double buff (faster dps and higher damage vs armored) and spore crawler rooting buff (which was unnecessary anyway, you just had to make 1additional spore crawler). In reality zergs started winning immediately after you stopped making roach hydra corruptor every single fucking game.
I think its time to revert the infestor buff vs armored now that people have realized its power. The main problem with fungal buff is not the ability itself but the fact that it removes the ability to move and thereby causing guaranteed damage with both the fungal itself and the ling/baneling that follow.
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On August 10 2011 18:25 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:22 Azarkon wrote:On August 10 2011 18:03 jinixxx123 wrote:On August 10 2011 17:57 Azarkon wrote:On August 10 2011 17:53 Zzoram wrote:
Maybe Warp Prism build time needs to be reduced? Right now nobody builds them because it takes up too much Robo time. That would help, but beyond build time, they just don't work as well as you think. To the people who think that increased hp would help, that's not the issue in PvZ - Zerg either has Mutas (in which case your warp prism will be taken out), or they don't, in which case you'll generally escape with it. The problem is the units that get left behind. If you use a warp prism for a round of warp-ins, most of those units are forfeit. You can only save a few on the warp prism, and Protoss units are expensive. Is stopping the Zerg from mining for 30 seconds worth losing 5-6 zealots? Because that's the kind of trade you're looking at. terrans do it all the time, 100 gas for medicvac and lots of marines in it for a fresh suicide run. i still think its one of the most unexplored units currently. for e.g, i see so many toss's complain about terrans 1-1-1 timing push, and yet not one of them makes a warp prism to drop zealots in terran base while hes siegeing up outside your expo.. against Z, not every z goes muta, so you could use them. Even if they do go muta, its possible to hide them and wait for the flock to be out of position, the great thing about the prisim is that you can move it out with 0 units, find a safe place, warp in a round of maybe hightemplars or zealot, then fly it off to someway safe and wait for a key moment to use it. like for instance, Zergs are currently doing that, they wait for toss to be fully ingauged with fighting, then drop banelings on their probe lines.. If zealots were like marines, I'd agree with you, but they aren't. Even with charge, they're not very good at chasing down drones. Nor are they as good as stimmed marauders in taking down buildings. The best use for zealots in a warp prism is sniping hatcheries and exploiting the lack of multi-task from the opponent. In this capacity they have some use. But to snipe a hatchery, the Zerg has to be way out of position, and to exploit lack of multi-task, you typically need more than one warp prism, which people are loath to build because if getting even one is an issue, then getting two is a problem. counterattacking when your enemy is out of position (or rather, attacking) is something terran (and more zergs nowadays) do all the time. you say it like being out of position is a mistake when in reality if zerg ever attacks you can fly those zealots in and harass (unless there's static defense present). four zealots with upgrades can actually kill shit pretty darn fast.
Zerg has much more mobility than Protoss with speedlings, and therefore tend to be out of position a lot less. The race that gets out of position the most is usually Protoss, or a Terran playing mech, precisely because their units are so much slower.
Drawing a Zerg out of position is also harder simply because they have more vision from overlords and creep.
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Understand that Thorzain and Naniwa arrived in Korea after traveling for a few weeks. Even at the blizzard invitational Naniwa stated he wasn't in shape which was like two days ago? He then went on a plane to korea and played in code A the next day.
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On August 10 2011 18:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:24 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:15 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:13 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:12 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:
At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance. If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things. Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it. to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into. colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff. I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around. around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third? Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third. Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs is there a reason why a turtle style of play can't keep up though? if you see zerg getting a fast third, it means his lair is delayed so roach speed/muta/hydra/drop/nydus/infestors are all delayed and you don't need to worry about them until a little later than usual. without roach speed or drop or nydus it's very, very hard to put pressure on a protoss with good simcity, so I'm wondering if you can be a little greedier. I guess part of the problem is that until colossus/storm protoss really doesn't have anything which can kill lings without them getting away relatively unscathed... forcefields are nice but against speedlings they're a little eh. It works occasionaly, but if you use it too often zerg will learn to cut corners because they know you are not going to pressure. Geoff touched on this on tonights Inside the game. well yeah, there's always somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors aspect but what you're talking about is metagaming your opponent, not balance within the game. there might also be undiscovered timings with the new archon/ht type stuff. look at PvZ of olde, mutalisks were used quite frequently and a lot of protoss thought it was imbaimbaimba - then 6gate was discovered and zergs couldnt really do that safely anymore, at least without investing a ton into static defense correct me if I'm wrong, but with good hallucination scouting you can even 6gate as a reaction to spire can you not? I think there might be undiscovered "oh he's doing this I can go fucking kill him now" attacks which will change the state of PvZ.
I think i expressed myself poorly. Its probably the turtly protoss style that is a "metagaming"-build, because its still something rare that zergs dont expect. If Zerg sees it coming they can just sit back and outmacro you while getting out that zerg infest-broodlord-corruptor deathball while dropping banelings/Lings on your mineral line.
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On August 10 2011 18:33 NoobSh1t wrote:
Understand that Thorzain and Naniwa arrived in Korea after traveling for a few weeks. Even at the blizzard invitational Naniwa stated he wasn't in shape which was like two days ago? He then went on a plane to korea and played in code A the next day.
Why is jetlag a valid excuse when foreigners do badly in Korea, but when Koreans lose a game or two at MLG and people chalk it up to jetlag, that isn't a valid excuse?
lol.
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On August 10 2011 18:27 yawnoC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:25 ct2299 wrote:
Where are all the bandwagon Thorzain fans that said Thorzain could dominate Code A based on his results in TSL?
L O L. I am right here. Who are you a fan of, wait Let me guess, whoever is winning right now ?
I'm not really a fan of anyone. And I'm definitely also not an unrealistic fanatical fan either. Thorzain did well in TSL, I'll admit that, but he's not about to go and dominate Code A like people think he well. I don't think Thorzain himself thought he would dominate Code A. This is more a humbling experience and a dosage of reality for blind TL fans if anything.
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On August 10 2011 18:38 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:33 NoobSh1t wrote:
Understand that Thorzain and Naniwa arrived in Korea after traveling for a few weeks. Even at the blizzard invitational Naniwa stated he wasn't in shape which was like two days ago? He then went on a plane to korea and played in code A the next day. Why is jetlag a valid excuse when foreigners do badly in Korea, but when Koreans lose a game or two at MLG and people chalk it up to jetlag, that isn't a valid excuse? lol.
Sweden -> Anaheim -> Sweden -> Warsaw -> Sweden -> Korea
in a little more than a week
=
very little time for preparation for GSL
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On August 10 2011 18:34 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:24 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:15 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:13 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:12 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 18:08 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On August 10 2011 18:05 quiet noise wrote:On August 10 2011 17:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:
At the end of the day I don't think the balance of the game is as big of an issue as people seem to make out. There's plenty of zergs, terrans, and protosses right now at the top of the korean ladder right now, and sometimes GSL results are just GSL results. There aren't infinite games going on, and not everyone is equally as skilled as the other player, and sometimes it's just luck or coincidence. During today's games I clearly saw most of the players getting beat because they played worse, not because of race balance. If you look beyond the "player x vs player y" part, sit down and break down the game and look at it from a analytical point of view you will come across some things that just dont make sense. I know its a taboo to discuss or even think about balance in this community, but smart people will always question stuff and try to figure out and analyze things. Like Jinro said, it just looks like protoss ends up behind no matter what they do, and if you thought about the different possibilities by analysing the arsenal of avaible units/tech given to protoss, you get the feeling that there just isnt much you can do about it. to be honest the infestor buff kind of forces protosses down a tech tree that up until now has been relatively unexplored PvZ, so it's not that odd to see a lot of confusion about how to open/pressure/expand and such with the new styles they've been forced into. colossus stalker balls don't really work anymore and that's what pretty much everyone was doing every game, sometimes adding void rays for funsies, up until the infestor buff. I agree to some extent, but infestor is just a small part of the problem. The big thing that jinro touched upon is the fact that protoss seem to get behind in both economy and map control with few options to switch things around. around what time would you say the balance of the game shifts into zergs favour? is it when they saturate their third? Yep. Zerg basicly has map control from the moment that Zergling speed finishes, and they jump ahead in economy when they take their third. Then there is also the fact that protoss has no useful mineral line-killer unit wich means you cant go for a macro oriented build while at the same time cause economic damage, wich forces the protoss into a turtle-style of play. 1 spore/base shuts down DTs is there a reason why a turtle style of play can't keep up though? if you see zerg getting a fast third, it means his lair is delayed so roach speed/muta/hydra/drop/nydus/infestors are all delayed and you don't need to worry about them until a little later than usual. without roach speed or drop or nydus it's very, very hard to put pressure on a protoss with good simcity, so I'm wondering if you can be a little greedier. I guess part of the problem is that until colossus/storm protoss really doesn't have anything which can kill lings without them getting away relatively unscathed... forcefields are nice but against speedlings they're a little eh. It works occasionaly, but if you use it too often zerg will learn to cut corners because they know you are not going to pressure. Geoff touched on this on tonights Inside the game. well yeah, there's always somewhat of a rock-paper-scissors aspect but what you're talking about is metagaming your opponent, not balance within the game. there might also be undiscovered timings with the new archon/ht type stuff. look at PvZ of olde, mutalisks were used quite frequently and a lot of protoss thought it was imbaimbaimba - then 6gate was discovered and zergs couldnt really do that safely anymore, at least without investing a ton into static defense correct me if I'm wrong, but with good hallucination scouting you can even 6gate as a reaction to spire can you not? I think there might be undiscovered "oh he's doing this I can go fucking kill him now" attacks which will change the state of PvZ. I think i expressed myself poorly. Its probably the turtly protoss style that is a "metagaming"-build, because its still something rare that zergs dont expect. If Zerg sees it coming they can just sit back and outmacro you while getting out that zerg infest-broodlord-corruptor deathball while dropping banelings/Lings on your mineral line.
is the deathball the actual issue? because zergs won't usually get infestors until 6 gas unless it's a weird rush, and won't usually go for the BL/Inf/Cor deathball until 8 gas unless it's a weird rush -
(I take my 4th around the time as my hive usually, so I'll have 8 gas running by the time greater spire finishes but that's just me. I don't think 3 base BL/Inf/Cor is that great though, you need a good foundation of infestors before going the spire units and to rush hive off 3 base would be to have a much weaker infestor count)
- and 3 base protoss is around the time they start being able to be competitive in terms of macro (4 base protoss is scary)
so yeah he'll have 4 base and his deathball sooner, but you'll have 3 base sooner as well. it's just an arms race of cutting corners reactionarily but if you see the other guy cutting too many corners you kill the son of a bitch. the problem would arise if one guy can cut corners but the other guy can't and just falls behind, but since you can't do everything at once it seems rather odd that that would happen.
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On August 10 2011 17:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:15 SEANSYE wrote:Jinro, what do you think about Protoss so far? and some of the other races in the GSL. Do you think everything is very balanced and some of the races/players are just suffering from a meta game shift? Would really a Pros opinion on the situation I think P has generally less good players than T or Z BUT I also think its starting to look like P is in need of help. PvZ I just havent seen anything that even looks effective in a long time, its like you end up behind every single game you play then maybe come back? :/
Thanks for answering Jinro =) Hope you bounceback soon!!
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Its a hard day to be swedish.
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So disappointing that only Thorzain was able to take a single game from today's foreigner Code A matches.
This only confirms my view that foreigners have a long, long way to go to catch up. Good effort for trying maybe next time we can do better.
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just woke up.. what a dissapointment
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On August 10 2011 18:29 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 18:25 ct2299 wrote:
Where are all the bandwagon Thorzain fans that said Thorzain could dominate Code A based on his results in TSL?
L O L. Thorzain was the only foreigner that took a game of a Korean today
Hilarious how the standard has been changed: to go from dominating Code A to winning a game. Moral victory is still a victory I suppose.
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EPT
