EPTHomeStoryCup III - Day 3 - Page 295
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bRuTaL!!
Finland588 Posts
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
fucking | ||
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YoungNeil
Canada328 Posts
He could have had better creep spread around the ramp where HuK was poking in and out, then HuK wouldn't have been able to avoid losses from the speedlings without building a lot of sentries. That would have completely defeated the purpose of the harassment, which was to pick off units and distract IdrA at a minimal resource cost while HuK massed stalkers and built up his upgrade advantage. The lings already threatened HuK's stalker ball quite a bit, with one good surround engagement (which IdrA did try to do, that's when he killed the sentries), IdrA could have wiped out the stalker ball for good. HuK relied really heavily on that harassment, and IdrA could have shut it down with a few better engagements. Better creep spread would have made lings devastatingly effective, as I said, but that's only the easiest thing. Spine crawlers have the range and DPS to make the stalker pokes very dangerous, and they have enough health that they can't just be picked off like roaches. Haypro actually mentioned this, three of those near IdrA's third would have forced HuK to attack at a worse location. Hydras would have been good (not roach/hydra, ling/hydra with a few roaches to tank), especially since their range matches stalker range. HuK got a lot of free hits on roaches when they were chasing his stalkers (without speed or creep, notably) to close the distance so they could attack with their shorter range. Infestors are also fantastic at shutting down blink harass, since it prevents the stalkers from retreating and basically sentences them to death unless HuK is willing to commit, but I doubt IdrA had enough gas to do that and make hydras. And of course, matching upgrades with HuK (was it 3-0-0 vs. 1-0 at the end?) would have made those small engagements more cost-effective for IdrA. Some people find the blink stalker strategy tedious and frustrating to watch, but I actually find it very interesting when executed well. It's an extremely tense balancing act on the part of both players, and it's a lot more micro-intensive than it may look. Yes, blinking against pure roach is simple (it requires speed, but not much else), but lings and other units make the matter much more complicated. A simple ling surround makes normal blink micro useless, so you need to get zealots and sentries to deal with lings, or plan your positioning out very carefully to prevent effective flanks. Protoss needs to scout to figure out what the Zerg is doing in response to blink harass like that, since while there is no hard counter, there are a lot of things that can be done to help. And, perhaps most importantly, the whole cycle of harassment-into-push takes so long that either player will be completely ruined if he can't keep up his micro and positioning while macroing properly. It looks simpler than it is, because the camera generally focuses only on the stalkers and the Zerg defences, but an entire macro game is going on in the background. The entire thing is a careful game of cat and mouse, where each player tries to bait the other into losing too many units and crippling themselves for the eventual final push. Yes, it's tiring when the Protoss gets a bunch of blink stalkers and flat out kills (or loses to) a Zerg who just pumps out roaches, but that's not at all what happened here. I thought it was a very tense game, and it definitely could have gone to either player with some different decision-making in the setup for the harassment and battle. I didn't notice any single mistake that could have turned the game around, and that's what I find so fascinating. Unlike many games, where the whole thing swings on one battle or engagement, a blink stalker game with good play on both sides goes to the player who does slightly better over the long term. Yes, this is something of a tl;dr post. Yes, I'm tired of people complaining about boring games and blaming it on one factor that does not decide the excitement of the game. Yes, the next game is already over. What of it? :| | ||
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Jampackedeon
United States2053 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:45 Caphe wrote: Yeah, stop crying Idra fanboys. The 3rd game could go either ways with some difference decision. Lets get on with the tourney and FYI Idra is not out of the tourney yet, hes in LB with a chance to come back. The 3rd game required Idra to play absolutely perfect, and while Huk did it exactly right it is INCREDIBLY hard for a zerg player to deal with blink stalkers when it is supported by 3 bases an 8 or so gateways. Idra had to have teched faster and I think he would have held but it is so hard to make those calls against toss. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6667 Posts
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landmarktiger
226 Posts
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Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
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Azuroz
Sweden1630 Posts
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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Kevan
Sweden2303 Posts
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JohnMatrix
France1359 Posts
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Harrad
1003 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:48 Andamanen wrote: Ninawerr! being german myself I really don't understand why he says 'er" instead of 'a', there's no logical reason to pronounce it that way :S | ||
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Losthorn
Georgia351 Posts
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:49 bRuTaL!! wrote: I have literally never seen a match where the expanding protoss wins... Watch White-ra vs MC ^^, same map but with cross pos, cant remember the event tho | ||
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hammarfOu
Sweden363 Posts
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:49 JohnnyBlaze420 wrote: hmm shouldn't have expanded so early....oh well wp by nani Cmon mc win game 2 XD well, if MC expands later, its even harder to hold. expand timing at pvp is kind of gamblish | ||
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lunchforthesky
United Kingdom967 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:48 fone wrote: Wait for it....MC ties 1:1 and the 3rd game MC is going to all-in Naniwa. It's PvP. Everything is an all in in PvP. | ||
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kefif
Poland264 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:49 bRuTaL!! wrote: I have literally never seen a match where the expanding protoss wins... you should watch some pvps with adelscott or mana. | ||
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Nivyan
Denmark42 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:41 Shuffleus wrote: This game is the icing on the cake to a myriad of games i've been experiencing in tournaments/ladder. I really have no idea how to approach this problem if anyone has any advice that would be swelll. You can't get fungal while making enough units to stop the blink stalkers. Perhaps if Idra knew huk would push when he did he could have had time to reach fungal but as it was I just don't see what you do against that. Huk goes nexus first into a probe cutting 6gate blink stalker allin. The nature of blink stalker allins is that you can't sustain a defence for it over a long period of time, the protoss wears you down regardless of an economical advantage (as you saw in that game). As such you have to crush the first attack all at once and therefore need to cut workers and begin unit production asap. In this game Idra managed to sneak a scout in and saw the gateway timing and the twilight, so he knew that huk was cutting probes to allin. Due to the super fortunate timing of idra's ling scout he managed to be able to cut drones at essentially the same level that huk cut probes which is roughly ideal for blink stalker defense ZvP. As Huk knew his strat was given away, he threw down a nexus and resumed probe production while finishing off his tech, denying scouting and faking pressure with his first group of blink stalkers. After a short period of time Idra became aware of the third and redroned, making up the 3 base saturation before huk came back oncreep with his blink stalkers. From here it's just a tale of super cost efficiency, Idra was ahead economically (up over 10 workers mining at essentially optimal saturation) was up a significant amount of supply (a given with a roach defense i guess) and his composition was the best considering the previous situation. he didn't have time to get a significant amount of infestors and Hydras are a non option after that earlygame. Huk's blink micro was very far from perfect but he stilll ran idra over with ease. This was not an engagement that was remotely close. If you gave idra 10 more roaches Huk would just wear him down longer. TL: DR ; What DO YOU DO in Idra's situation?! I don't see how those blink stalkers are stoppable. Any kind of allin answer or completely commit and flank gets nullified by huk's sentry count and leaves you kind of helpless. Someone answer this man! | ||
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oogieogie
United States3657 Posts
On June 26 2011 03:37 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Yet you wouldn't just build marauders when you see a toss making voidrays would you? Blink stalkers are a hard counter to roaches(Especially with Immortals in the mix). "Too easy to use?" You're not a Protoss player you Liar I can smell your zerg Idra fanboy tears from here! Blinking Individual stalkers while keeping up your macro is extremely difficult to do. the problem seems to come from where infestors can't come early enough, and blink stalkers counters all of zerg T1. Also idk i think another problems is where protoss can get +3 weapons super quick. also it is probably because roachs didn't have speed, but huk didn't really have any amazing points of micro when he was poking with like 3 then blinking all of his stalkers back. | ||
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