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MLG Day1 LR Thread - Page 391

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Recordings of todays games are playing on http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red and http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Blue - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=229478&currentpage=389#7772 for how to skip to games
Svizcy
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovenia300 Posts
June 04 2011 08:02 GMT
#7801
On June 04 2011 17:00 yawnoC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:54 Svizcy wrote:
How do you skip intro and stuff? I had to refresh the blue stream once and now i'm watching everything all over again. =__=
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:52 yawnoC wrote:
[image loading]
Click on Idra vs MC to skip the whole introduction

TLO vs Losira is also there


There you go :D


It redirects me to red stream if i click on that no matter what, and i want to see blue one, lol.
Any other possibilities?
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
June 04 2011 08:03 GMT
#7802
On June 04 2011 17:02 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-

I do ^_^_^_^
In fact, I think almost every high level Protoss on SEA has Hallucination as part of their staple PvZ.

I usually just try roll in and outright kill the Zerg when they take a really fast third, but I guess this way works too
Not to sound cocky, but SEA is generally on the cutting edge of strategy >.> too bad SEA mechanics suck too much for them to be more dominant hah.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
yawnoC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States3704 Posts
June 04 2011 08:03 GMT
#7803
On June 04 2011 17:02 Svizcy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:00 yawnoC wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:54 Svizcy wrote:
How do you skip intro and stuff? I had to refresh the blue stream once and now i'm watching everything all over again. =__=
On June 04 2011 16:52 yawnoC wrote:
[image loading]
Click on Idra vs MC to skip the whole introduction

TLO vs Losira is also there


There you go :D


It redirects me to red stream if i click on that no matter what, and i want to see blue one, lol.
Any other possibilities?


Pick Losira vs TLO ?
worked for me
GG - UNiVeRsE is the best player in the WORLD
Dingobloo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1903 Posts
June 04 2011 08:04 GMT
#7804
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.
naolin
Profile Joined March 2011
United States81 Posts
June 04 2011 08:04 GMT
#7805
On June 04 2011 16:52 yawnoC wrote:
[image loading]
Click on Idra vs MC to skip the whole introduction

TLO vs Losira is also there




awesome thanks! only missed the idra select match and didn't want to have to leave it running for like an 2 hours.
Jim7
Profile Joined December 2010
United States154 Posts
June 04 2011 08:04 GMT
#7806
Did anyone see any ghosts vs Zerg? Seems like zerg are finally using them to their potential with fg AND np.
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
June 04 2011 08:06 GMT
#7807
On June 04 2011 17:02 xbankx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:49 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:48 xbankx wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:37 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:36 xbankx wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:33 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:22 SundeR. wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:20 nAgeDitto wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:19 wei2coolman wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:17 Nolot wrote:
Not surprised zergs are owning, after all the insane buffs they got recently. I'm thinking a ZvZ final for this one, IdrA vs july

I wouldn't say its the insane buff. If you think about it they're last buff was like 2 patches ago. I just think they're finally figuring out how to play Zerg, just like Protoss players finally figured out how to play protoss despite the constant nerf ever since the beginning of the release of wings of liberty.


Pretty spot on imo.

If you look at the play style of zergs of early sc2 and zergs of now, theres a MASSIVE difference.

think thats what is leading to a huge 'rise' of zergs in major tourneys (of course players that were great even w/ the 'wrong' playstyle pretty much performed well.)


I would like to know about this 'insane' buff and where I can read up on it.

There's a big difference between Protoss figuring out how to exploit various ridiculousness versus particular races and Zerg figuring out how to adapt to all of those ridiculous exploitations, just saying.

I'd say Roach range and Fungal damage/time were some pretty huge buffs. You can read up on them in the patch notes. I'm not saying it's OP, but it definitely increased Zerg's chances of winning. Helions and Reapers can no longer kite Roaches and any type of bio play or drop play is much harder now due to the Fungal buff.


I start with 40-50 marines by the time I get to a zergs base Im down to like 20 marines. Fungal is the storm that just keeps giving.
No doubt fungal is a really good spell, but it's not like there are equally good things in the Terran arsenal. Blue flame hellions? Medivac drops? Too early to conclude that the fungal buffs made it imba, especially considering the investment that infestors are.


Its defintely weaker compared to storm in context since storm+colossus was just luls but yea it is a strong spell and if you compare it out of context it is definitely stronger than storm. I am just quite surprised why I haven't seen infestor drops in mineral line cause when zerg explores that I think the game is gonna be silly.

Because baneling drops are stronger/more cost efficient.



You can run from a baneling drop. You can't run from a fungal.

If you're doing drops when there's no battles going on, then the protoss army is probably at home. If he spots your drop he'll go and kill it before your infestors get 2 fungals off. If you do it during a battle, not only does that heavily tax your multitasking, it takes that infestor (or two) away from the battle where it's actually needed. Also, every fungal you use on the mineral line is one less fungal you can use in battle.

If you do a baneling drop while a battle's going on, free probes for you. Everything about a baneling drop can be done via shift queuing so it doesn't even take up your multitasking at all. Banelings with +2 will also one shot probes. Missing 4 banelings in battle for PvZ is really not a worry at all.
lalala
Nolot
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom271 Posts
June 04 2011 08:07 GMT
#7808
Was just watching idra vs mc, my firefox crashed and now I have to watch game1 all over again just to watch game2?
blade55555
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States17423 Posts
June 04 2011 08:07 GMT
#7809
On June 04 2011 17:04 Jim7 wrote:
Did anyone see any ghosts vs Zerg? Seems like zerg are finally using them to their potential with fg AND np.


nah none of the terrans wanted to use ghosts sadly. They will realize it eventually ^^
When I think of something else, something will go here
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
June 04 2011 08:08 GMT
#7810
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:25 dc302 wrote:
Are people forgetting that part of the reason why Zergs are 'dominating' right now may be because its Losira, Moon and Idra playing? As in, it's more to do with the players themselves, rather than the race imho.

Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.
lalala
sc14s
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5052 Posts
June 04 2011 08:08 GMT
#7811
On June 04 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:04 Jim7 wrote:
Did anyone see any ghosts vs Zerg? Seems like zerg are finally using them to their potential with fg AND np.


nah none of the terrans wanted to use ghosts sadly. They will realize it eventually ^^

meta game is always evolving :D
Kettchup
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1911 Posts
June 04 2011 08:10 GMT
#7812
Hm, so the highest seed of the 4 open bracket winners gets placed into pool A? If so, that's pretty good news for July. Just has to hope AxSlav, KawaiiRice, Fenix or Vibe don't make it through. Think he could roll through pool A pretty easily, especially with Naniwa already dropping a series.

Also looks pretty good for Thorzain getting the 3rd seed and pool C, if Cruncher or Major can take a spot. A rematch with MC would amazing.
Dingobloo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1903 Posts
June 04 2011 08:10 GMT
#7813
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.


Then we're back to throwing up the expansion later than the zerg due to scouting.
Nolot
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom271 Posts
June 04 2011 08:10 GMT
#7814
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.


The thing is, if you go for a 3gate expand, the roachling allin hits just before your hallucination is finished
sc14s
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5052 Posts
June 04 2011 08:10 GMT
#7815
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:
[quote]
Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races

http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up

The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly.


That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.

its sort of a matter of opinion.. i mean hallu does cost precious sentry mana.. and we all know a protoss lacking in FF is pretty much 100% a dead toss since you wont have jack for tech anyways with sentrys and expanding.
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
June 04 2011 08:11 GMT
#7816
On June 04 2011 17:10 Dingobloo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.


Then we're back to throwing up the expansion later than the zerg due to scouting.

??
You still throw down the expansion. You just throw down cannons, a full wall off and position your army if you scout an all in.
lalala
SundeR.
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia112 Posts
June 04 2011 08:11 GMT
#7817
On June 04 2011 17:10 Nolot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.


The thing is, if you go for a 3gate expand, the roachling allin hits just before your hallucination is finished


Practice your forcefields, they are there for a reason.
Dantat
Profile Joined April 2011
170 Posts
June 04 2011 08:12 GMT
#7818
Man... Select has been playing too many 2 v 2's
youngminii
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Australia7514 Posts
June 04 2011 08:12 GMT
#7819
On June 04 2011 17:10 Nolot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P

idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response).
On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:
On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]

That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes.

No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing.

Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases.

idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals


I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time.

Build 5 cannons per expansion.

I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons.

Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.-


Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated.

Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.


The thing is, if you go for a 3gate expand, the roachling allin hits just before your hallucination is finished

this is true

what can i say, you just gotta have some good force fields and simcity
lalala
yawnoC
Profile Joined December 2010
United States3704 Posts
June 04 2011 08:14 GMT
#7820
Thank you to whoever added the shortcut to the table at the top of the thread ^_^
GG - UNiVeRsE is the best player in the WORLD
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