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Eh, i guess ill have to wait for the july optik replay.
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On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:[quote] Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly. That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes. No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg  you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response). On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:On June 04 2011 16:28 Plexa wrote:[quote] Sorry but that's a crap argument ... by implication are you saying that there are no talented players playing other races http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/MLG_Columbus_Red/ game 2 of idra vs MC coming up The reason protoss are losing against zerg at the moment is that they are all being outmacroed really really badly. That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes. No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases. idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time. Build 5 cannons per expansion. I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons. Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.- Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated. Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway.
And it's still worthless because you've used 100 energy of two sentries making them basically worthless (100 mins/200 gas, the gas cost of another colossus) if an attack is coming, to send out phoenixes to see if there is saturation at that base. And if there is not that means nothing because:
1.) they could just now be transferring the drones and your phoenix dies out
2.) another base could've been oversaturated in the first place or almost gone and the drones are being transferred.
3.) seeing units being created opposed to drones does not mean that the zerg is about to attack, it means that he is creating enough units to hold off what you have + potentially deny an expansion of yours, and then he can return to droning right after once he feels comfortable.
4.) once the nexus is up and it is just becoming saturated it is a large commitment and when it is finished the zerg can simply switch into unit-making mode, make 15 roaches at a time to buffer his army, and kill it, then potentially kill your army because you just attempted to expand.
You act as if you can just make infinite hallucinations to scout. Each is 100 energy from a sentry, and the reason you are massing sentries is because 99% of their worth comes from forcefield in the first place. Yeah it's better than scan, but you rarely see scans used to see what harvesters there are---you use it to keep tabs on whether a base or tech is up.
Also lol at whoever said that a protoss can keep up with a macro zerg if he chronoboosts his probes. Chronoboost on probes will speed them up for a short period of time, and chronoboost could be better spent on upgrades or colossi. Having your probe production speed up does not match a 8-12 drone pump.
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On June 04 2011 17:46 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]
That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes. No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response). On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:39 SuperStyle wrote:
[quote]
That is because both Terran and Protoss cant match zergs macro as a race in the late game, their goal is simple... Kill the zerg before he gets 4-5 bases because from that point ur only chance of winning is if the zerg makes some really bad mistakes. No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases. idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time. Build 5 cannons per expansion. I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons. Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.- Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated. Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway. And it's still worthless because you've used 100 energy of two sentries making them basically worthless (100 mins/200 gas, the gas cost of another colossus) if an attack is coming, to send out phoenixes to see if there is saturation at that base. And if there is not that means nothing because: 1.) they could just now be transferring the drones and your phoenix dies out 2.) another base could've been oversaturated in the first place or almost gone and the drones are being transferred. 3.) seeing units being created opposed to drones does not mean that the zerg is about to attack, it means that he is creating enough units to hold off what you have + potentially deny an expansion of yours, and then he can return to droning right after once he feels comfortable. 4.) once the nexus is up and it is just becoming saturated it is a large commitment and when it is finished the zerg can simply switch into unit-making mode, make 15 roaches at a time to buffer his army, and kill it, then potentially kill your army because you just attempted to expand. You act as if you can just make infinite hallucinations to scout. Each is 100 energy from a sentry, and the reason you are massing sentries is because 99% of their worth comes from forcefield in the first place. Yeah it's better than scan, but you rarely see scans used to see what harvesters there are---you use it to keep tabs on whether a base or tech is up. Also lol at whoever said that a protoss can keep up with a macro zerg if he chronoboosts his probes. Chronoboost on probes will speed them up for a short period of time, and chronoboost could be better spent on upgrades or colossi. Having your probe production speed up does not match a 8-12 drone pump.
scouting is more important than a couple of forcefields
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How can I rewatch the games? Each time I start certain game, the restream just dies after some time ;/
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Just a quick question... HOW HE HELL DID IDRA HOLD OFF THE OPENING PRESSURE IN THE SECOND GAME V. MC! By god.
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On June 04 2011 17:25 Lann555 wrote:I have been trying to watch TLO vs Losira for over 20 minuts now. First I got 5 minuts of Tastosis. Then 5 minuts black screen, then 10 minuts of Dr. Pepper commercials...now black screen again. Is this normal?
I got 5 minutes of Tastosis, 10 minutes of black screen, 10 minutes of cell phone commercials...now black screen again. Hopefully there are games somewhere in here, but it's loading so slowwwwwww.....
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On June 04 2011 17:54 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 17:46 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:[quote] No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response). On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:[quote] No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases. idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time. Build 5 cannons per expansion. I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons. Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.- Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated. Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway. And it's still worthless because you've used 100 energy of two sentries making them basically worthless (100 mins/200 gas, the gas cost of another colossus) if an attack is coming, to send out phoenixes to see if there is saturation at that base. And if there is not that means nothing because: 1.) they could just now be transferring the drones and your phoenix dies out 2.) another base could've been oversaturated in the first place or almost gone and the drones are being transferred. 3.) seeing units being created opposed to drones does not mean that the zerg is about to attack, it means that he is creating enough units to hold off what you have + potentially deny an expansion of yours, and then he can return to droning right after once he feels comfortable. 4.) once the nexus is up and it is just becoming saturated it is a large commitment and when it is finished the zerg can simply switch into unit-making mode, make 15 roaches at a time to buffer his army, and kill it, then potentially kill your army because you just attempted to expand. You act as if you can just make infinite hallucinations to scout. Each is 100 energy from a sentry, and the reason you are massing sentries is because 99% of their worth comes from forcefield in the first place. Yeah it's better than scan, but you rarely see scans used to see what harvesters there are---you use it to keep tabs on whether a base or tech is up. Also lol at whoever said that a protoss can keep up with a macro zerg if he chronoboosts his probes. Chronoboost on probes will speed them up for a short period of time, and chronoboost could be better spent on upgrades or colossi. Having your probe production speed up does not match a 8-12 drone pump. scouting is more important than a couple of forcefields
Not when that scouting means nothing, like in the four points I just brought up. Btw MC scouted IdrA and Ret over and over with phoenixes.
On June 04 2011 18:00 shabinka wrote:
Just a quick question... HOW HE HELL DID IDRA HOLD OFF THE OPENING PRESSURE IN THE SECOND GAME V. MC! By god.
Um, by making zerglings? People overexaggerate so much holy shit. Once he saw the zealots he started hitting the button for zerglings, then he sent them over on attack command until the zealots were dead. Not exactly some godlike skill going on there. MC should've targeted the hatch but he was obviously not playing his best. But of course I would be accused of making excuses even though Tasteless passed out in the back and LosirA almost fell asleep in the booth, and they came into Columbus before MC.
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not really sure where to post this, but......MYSTIK FIGHTING!!!
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On June 04 2011 18:00 shabinka wrote:
Just a quick question... HOW HE HELL DID IDRA HOLD OFF THE OPENING PRESSURE IN THE SECOND GAME V. MC! By god.
Um, by making zerglings? People overexaggerate so much holy shit. Once he saw the zealots he started hitting the button for zerglings, then he sent them over on attack command until the zealots were dead. Not exactly some godlike skill going on there. MC should've targeted the hatch but he was obviously not playing his best. But of course I would be accused of making excuses even though Tasteless passed out in the back and LosirA almost fell asleep in the booth, and they came into Columbus before MC. [/QUOTE]
One mistake doesn't mean he wasn't playing his best. He did have the hatch though.
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On June 04 2011 17:54 sOda~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 17:46 Heavenly wrote:On June 04 2011 17:08 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 17:04 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:59 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:57 youngminii wrote:On June 04 2011 16:55 Dingobloo wrote:On June 04 2011 16:46 Plexa wrote:On June 04 2011 16:43 sc14s wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:[quote] No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. the issue with expoing as fast them is they can swap over to pure army much faster than you and overrun your expos. this especially goes for P idk game 2 of idra vs mc seems to disagree. both players similar bases all games long, and idras gets the edge because he gets tech (infestors) whereas MC avoids templar (which is the proper response). On June 04 2011 16:46 Devolved wrote:On June 04 2011 16:41 Plexa wrote:[quote] No it's because Terran and Protoss don't expand aggressively enough against a macro oriented zerg, leading to them falling behind in worker count and income you either need to timing push to kill them, or expand at a similar timing. Well, by the design of the game, it's impossible not to fall behind in worker count vs. Zerg since they can create multiple workers at a time, a feature that grows exponentially throughout the game as their hatch count increases. idk i disagree with that. I think that most of the "zerg needs to be one base ahead' mentality is a consequence of BW where that was the case, but in SC2 if the Zerg is one base ahead they actually have an advantage (economically). Lots of players just seem to accept the one base ahead rule which puts them behind. You'd be surprised at how chronoboosted probes can keep up with larvae inject, and how (using the 1 mule = +4 scvs rule) Terran don't fall behind with 3 orbitals I think game one of Idra vs MC is a greater example of why no protoss do it, you just get too spread out if you want anything to do with collosus. While I agree that "Zerg needs to be 1 base ahead always!" is really stupid, i've just yet to see a strategy that keeps a third safe at a similar timing to a zerg even when you get your natural up at a similar time. Build 5 cannons per expansion. I wish I was joking, as a Protoss you usually end up with too many minerals that you can't dump into units since Zealots are *almost* useless in PvZ, so you just wall off your expansions as best you can and mass cannons. Even better... research hallucination and when you see the zerg expanding, expand yourself because you know you're going to be safe. Why do protoss refuse to use a maphack like hallucination? I'll never know... at least huk does -.- Because as we've seen from all this roach/ling vs 3 gate business, throwing down a hatchery is no indication that it's going to be saturated. Send another phoenix and check the harvester count. It's literally BETTER than scans in terms of maphack, except that you need a lot of sentries, but that's a non issue since PvZ is all about sentries now anyway. And it's still worthless because you've used 100 energy of two sentries making them basically worthless (100 mins/200 gas, the gas cost of another colossus) if an attack is coming, to send out phoenixes to see if there is saturation at that base. And if there is not that means nothing because: 1.) they could just now be transferring the drones and your phoenix dies out 2.) another base could've been oversaturated in the first place or almost gone and the drones are being transferred. 3.) seeing units being created opposed to drones does not mean that the zerg is about to attack, it means that he is creating enough units to hold off what you have + potentially deny an expansion of yours, and then he can return to droning right after once he feels comfortable. 4.) once the nexus is up and it is just becoming saturated it is a large commitment and when it is finished the zerg can simply switch into unit-making mode, make 15 roaches at a time to buffer his army, and kill it, then potentially kill your army because you just attempted to expand. You act as if you can just make infinite hallucinations to scout. Each is 100 energy from a sentry, and the reason you are massing sentries is because 99% of their worth comes from forcefield in the first place. Yeah it's better than scan, but you rarely see scans used to see what harvesters there are---you use it to keep tabs on whether a base or tech is up. Also lol at whoever said that a protoss can keep up with a macro zerg if he chronoboosts his probes. Chronoboost on probes will speed them up for a short period of time, and chronoboost could be better spent on upgrades or colossi. Having your probe production speed up does not match a 8-12 drone pump. scouting is more important than a couple of forcefields
That is hardly based on the current situation
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So when I can't pick between the matches, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE ME CHOOSE BETWEEN TASTOSIS AND DAY 9? FUUUUUUUUUU
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On June 04 2011 18:12 Hostile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 18:00 shabinka wrote:
Just a quick question... HOW HE HELL DID IDRA HOLD OFF THE OPENING PRESSURE IN THE SECOND GAME V. MC! By god. Um, by making zerglings? People overexaggerate so much holy shit. Once he saw the zealots he started hitting the button for zerglings, then he sent them over on attack command until the zealots were dead. Not exactly some godlike skill going on there. MC should've targeted the hatch but he was obviously not playing his best. But of course I would be accused of making excuses even though Tasteless passed out in the back and LosirA almost fell asleep in the booth, and they came into Columbus before MC.
One mistake doesn't mean he wasn't playing his best. He did have the hatch though.[/QUOTE]
Him saying he wasn't playing his best means he wasn't playing his best. First game, he crushed IdrA who did the same exact thing with the same openings on both sides in the Dreamhack Invitational. Second game he managed to lose on same bases after denying IdrA's gold 2-3 times and sniping random roaches and infestors all the time. His loss there came from 1.) having half of his units attacking the rocks and the other half standing there getting attacked for a long time and 2.) allowing his immortals to wander way up front for no reason. Neither of those are things you ever see a prime MC do. Unless MC is just making excuses which he never does, he always concedes a fair loss.
Looking forward to a rematch between the two. Right afterwards he had an energy drink then completely destroyed Ret, their macro game wasn't even close.
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Sjow wasted some opportunities in his games vs MMA, it really looked like he could take the series.
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So I went out for the evening when only half the games have been played. I'm taking a look at the Open Brackets results on MLG's website and I'm a little confused. ROOTCatz has been placed in both the Winner's Bracket against STJuly and in the Loser's Bracket. Did Catz win or lose? And if he lost, why is he placed so far back in the Loser's Bracket?
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I just hope that MC and Naniwa makes it through their groups, want to see them face in the finals or something. 
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On June 04 2011 18:25 eYeball wrote:I just hope that MC and Naniwa makes it through their groups, want to see them face in the finals or something.
They can't be eliminated from the tournament based on group play only.
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On June 04 2011 18:23 Arolis wrote:
So I went out for the evening when only half the games have been played. I'm taking a look at the Open Brackets results on MLG's website and I'm a little confused. ROOTCatz has been placed in both the Winner's Bracket against STJuly and in the Loser's Bracket. Did Catz win or lose? And if he lost, why is he placed so far back in the Loser's Bracket?
The Winner's Bracket is up to date and the one to go by.
Their loser's bracket has errors and isn't updated at all, so disregard that for the moment.
On June 04 2011 18:25 eYeball wrote:I just hope that MC and Naniwa makes it through their groups, want to see them face in the finals or something.
The groups are only for seeding, there are no elimination games.
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Yo, are there any vods or stream on demand?
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On June 04 2011 17:18 Clafou wrote:
So... I didn't see anything (europe time, I had to sleep :D).
Was the IdrA vs MC match good?
And why does a few players (TLO, Tyler) have only 2 played matches?
I stayed up until Idra vs Select. Idra vs MC was amazing :D! You should watch the VODs.. Not sure why Tyler & TLO only have played 2 matches.
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EPT
