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On July 04 2011 10:44 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:38 IVN wrote:On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC...  That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more. Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth. You do realize that it is not the army composition that most people bitch imba about, its the fact that you can warp in 25 units instantly while chronoing colo off 4-5 nexi to remax to overwhelm the terran regardless of how badly you lost the engagement.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because Protoss in addition to warpgates also have unlimited money.
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On July 04 2011 10:38 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC... That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more. Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth.
I take it you did not watch Cruncher vs Select.
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MC is the Only toss who consistently nails feedback on ghosts before the land emp
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The protoss has to hide the Templar and force the ghosts to emp something else. Also, you definitely can split the Templars up. All you need is 3 storms and you win the engagement. TvP is all about engaging correctly during mid late game. The reason why Mc has beaten Thorzain lately is because he has superior army control then most Protoss players. In tsl, he was dying to timing pushes, which is a whole different story.
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Don't know why Minigun hasn't attempted some strong 2-base timing attack/all-in. He opened very greedily in both games (unpunished) and something like 5-colossi + mass stalker all-in off 2 base would hit Thorzain hard. Instead he kept on keeping his greed, and wanted to have all techs and upgrades and more expansions throughout the series. Sure Toss army is strong late game but apparently Thorzain knows a thing or two about it. Why not hit him hard early?
Watch MVP_Genius' games. Whether it's 2-base collosus, DTs, or mass zealots + sentries. Once you have a tech done you should at least attempt to poke to see if you can do any damage before your opponent is ready to your newly acquired tech. Instead Minigun went on tech after tech after tech, each time giving ample time for Thorzain to prepare.
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In terms of 2v2 - Has anyone thought about rebalancing it since Blizzard isn't focusing on 2v2 balancing (well not specifically that is)?
Never really watched or played much 2v2 so these are just examples of how 2v2 can changed (not suggestions) for people who do know more about 2v2 to think about:
1. Disabling resource trading completely (for example) (this can be done by making a mod [dependency] that has event - map init - Disable trading resources then just loading that mod into each 2v2 map). Mods can only have triggers by adding them in the library editor and editing the Game to load the trigger library.
2. Different maps (for example a map could have shared base but with two small ramps in a different corner of the base instead of one big ramp in the center).
3. And finally - different balancing (again it's possible by creating a "Mod" then changing the stats of units[for example], then simply loading that mod into each map). Since Blizzard focuses on 1v1 for balancing (usually), it's not always the right way for 2v2s.
Also if the community does some balancing that actually makes 2v2 more viable among all 3 race combination then Blizzard could follow with an official "different balancing" for 2v2 .
Obviously this does have a problem in that people may be caught off guard when playing 1v1 then 2v2. For example if a unit costs less resources to build in 2v2 (due to balance differences), they may forget that when they play 1v1 (though I'm not sure if this would be a problem at all actually).
Again these are just examples of what can be done for people who do know more about 2v2 (I don't know much about 2v2) to talk about since (disclaimer) I do not know much about 2v2 besides apparently T + Z is the best combo apparently?
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4448 Posts
On July 04 2011 12:01 Goldfish wrote:
In terms of 2v2 - Has anyone thought about rebalancing it since Blizzard isn't focusing on 2v2 balancing (well not specifically that is)?
Never really watched or played much 2v2 so these are just examples of how 2v2 can changed (not suggestions) for people who do know more about 2v2 to think about:
1. Disabling resource trading completely (for example) (this can be done by making a mod [dependency] that has event - map init - Disable trading resources then just loading that mod into each 2v2 map). Mods can only have triggers by adding them in the library editor and editing the Game to load the trigger library.
2. Different maps (for example a map could have shared base but with two small ramps in a different corner of the base instead of one big ramp in the center).
3. And finally - different balancing (again it's possible with the mod). Since Blizzard focuses on 1v1 for balancing (usually), it's not always the right way for 2v2s.
Also if the community does some balancing that actually makes 2v2 more viable among all 3 race combination then Blizzard could follow with an official mod for 2v2 .
Obviously this does have a con in that people may be caught off guard when playing 1v1 then 2v2.
So for example if a unit costs less resources to build in 2v2 (due to balance differences), they may forget that when they play 1v1 (though I'm not sure if this would be a problem at all actualyl).
Again these are just examples of what can be done for people who do know more about 2v2 (I don't know much about 2v2) to talk about since (disclaimer) I do not know much about 2v2 besides apparently T + Z is the best combo apparently?
I don't think it's been played enough to make any calls in that regard, it looks alright so far, I don't think there's anything to pinpoint for change right now. Terran + Zerg is just very prevalent because of it's early aggressive capabilities and having safer openings, it's very easy to get all-in'd and killed with a Protoss pairing but we really just have to wait and see how things turn out.
I don't think any changes are needed right now, we don't have enough information.
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On July 04 2011 10:27 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:25 Dommk wrote:On July 04 2011 10:24 Yaotzin wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Hide them behind the stalkers so they don't get sniped? Then how do you spot Ghost? Having them hovering over your army is just as useless as not having them at all. You need them infront so you can feedback before getting hit by 10range EMP;s - Start using more than 1 controlgroup instead of moving your templar in in along with your deathball tt... One templar in front, feedback and storm galore..
Most protosses are smart enough to have templars on a separate control group. That doesn't exactly help though as that means they would be clumped up anyways.
Having a few in with every different control group is not exactly ideal either since they will take priority over both sentries and blink stalkers, and the whole reason you have different control groups anyways is to be able to switch between those without having to tab.
Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless.
If you put a couple of templar in front, Terran can just snipe to not waste EMP.
More and more PvT is a positional and micro battle now. Where you put your stalkers/vikings collosi/bio templar/ghosts make all the difference in which side wins in a late game battle.
But don't just condescendingly bring out the "stop being bad" line on Protoss, and think about what you're saying.
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I think 2v2 will be a lot better next season. Blizzard is adding a bunch of new maps that focus on shared bases. Works out to be much better for protoss... so maybe we'll start seeing protoss combinations succeed.
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Who won? Wish the OP was updated...
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4448 Posts
On July 04 2011 13:40 jester- wrote:
Who won? Wish the OP was updated...
Complexity beat Fnatic 3-0 in the Loser's Bracket.
Complexity beat Dignitas 3-2 in the Loser's Finals.
Mouz beat Complexity 3-0 in the Grand Finals.
First Place: Mouz
Second Place: Complexity
Third Place: Dignitas
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On July 04 2011 12:44 JKira wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:27 ELA wrote:On July 04 2011 10:25 Dommk wrote:On July 04 2011 10:24 Yaotzin wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Hide them behind the stalkers so they don't get sniped? Then how do you spot Ghost? Having them hovering over your army is just as useless as not having them at all. You need them infront so you can feedback before getting hit by 10range EMP;s - Start using more than 1 controlgroup instead of moving your templar in in along with your deathball tt... One templar in front, feedback and storm galore.. Most protosses are smart enough to have templars on a separate control group. That doesn't exactly help though as that means they would be clumped up anyways. Having a few in with every different control group is not exactly ideal either since they will take priority over both sentries and blink stalkers, and the whole reason you have different control groups anyways is to be able to switch between those without having to tab. Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless. If you put a couple of templar in front, Terran can just snipe to not waste EMP. More and more PvT is a positional and micro battle now. Where you put your stalkers/vikings collosi/bio templar/ghosts make all the difference in which side wins in a late game battle. But don't just condescendingly bring out the "stop being bad" line on Protoss, and think about what you're saying.
You have an equal chance to feedback the ghost? It takes 2 snipes to kill a templar, 1 feedback can very easily take out a ghost in 1shot, if not it renders it pretty much useless if you're about to engage which makes up for the range difference (9 feedback, 10 snipe) at an equal energy cost for both abilities (Ofc. 2 snipes if killing the templar is 50 energy, compared to 25 energy of single feedback)
"Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless." - What? Of course you're going to get owned if you don't scout the Ghosts.. That works both ways, if T dosn't scout Templar, he's screwed too? lol!
Speed difference isn't massive, 1.875 vs. 2.3 - All I'm saying is, that sending 1-2 templar infront of your army isn't exactly rocket science if you know there's ghosts and it's such an easy thing to do, so why not do it?
Think about what I'm saying? Well right back at ya' buddy
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Knew from the start Mouz would make a big shot at winning this  . Congratz to them, they are looking scary and will only get better in the future.
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On July 04 2011 12:01 Goldfish wrote:
In terms of 2v2 - Has anyone thought about rebalancing it since Blizzard isn't focusing on 2v2 balancing (well not specifically that is)?
Never really watched or played much 2v2 so these are just examples of how 2v2 can changed (not suggestions) for people who do know more about 2v2 to think about:
1. Disabling resource trading completely (for example) (this can be done by making a mod [dependency] that has event - map init - Disable trading resources then just loading that mod into each 2v2 map). Mods can only have triggers by adding them in the library editor and editing the Game to load the trigger library.
2. Different maps (for example a map could have shared base but with two small ramps in a different corner of the base instead of one big ramp in the center).
3. And finally - different balancing (again it's possible by creating a "Mod" then changing the stats of units[for example], then simply loading that mod into each map). Since Blizzard focuses on 1v1 for balancing (usually), it's not always the right way for 2v2s.
Also if the community does some balancing that actually makes 2v2 more viable among all 3 race combination then Blizzard could follow with an official "different balancing" for 2v2 .
Obviously this does have a problem in that people may be caught off guard when playing 1v1 then 2v2. For example if a unit costs less resources to build in 2v2 (due to balance differences), they may forget that when they play 1v1 (though I'm not sure if this would be a problem at all actually).
Again these are just examples of what can be done for people who do know more about 2v2 (I don't know much about 2v2) to talk about since (disclaimer) I do not know much about 2v2 besides apparently T + Z is the best combo apparently?
That is a terrible idea, first of all resource sharing is one of the most important parts of team games and is important in high level 2v2s.
Second you can't add a mod for 2v2s either because as you noticed most of the high level 2v2s are played by 1v1 players. All timings, builds, and everything that makes sense in 1v1 goes out the window. That would just make for new things to be abused.
The only way to make 2v2 better is to change the maps they play on.
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On July 04 2011 15:05 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 12:44 JKira wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 ELA wrote:On July 04 2011 10:25 Dommk wrote:On July 04 2011 10:24 Yaotzin wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Hide them behind the stalkers so they don't get sniped? Then how do you spot Ghost? Having them hovering over your army is just as useless as not having them at all. You need them infront so you can feedback before getting hit by 10range EMP;s - Start using more than 1 controlgroup instead of moving your templar in in along with your deathball tt... One templar in front, feedback and storm galore.. Most protosses are smart enough to have templars on a separate control group. That doesn't exactly help though as that means they would be clumped up anyways. Having a few in with every different control group is not exactly ideal either since they will take priority over both sentries and blink stalkers, and the whole reason you have different control groups anyways is to be able to switch between those without having to tab. Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless. If you put a couple of templar in front, Terran can just snipe to not waste EMP. More and more PvT is a positional and micro battle now. Where you put your stalkers/vikings collosi/bio templar/ghosts make all the difference in which side wins in a late game battle. But don't just condescendingly bring out the "stop being bad" line on Protoss, and think about what you're saying. You have an equal chance to feedback the ghost? It takes 2 snipes to kill a templar, 1 feedback can very easily take out a ghost in 1shot, if not it renders it pretty much useless if you're about to engage which makes up for the range difference (9 feedback, 10 snipe) at an equal energy cost for both abilities (Ofc. 2 snipes if killing the templar is 50 energy, compared to 25 energy of single feedback)
"Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless." - What? Of course you're going to get owned if you don't scout the Ghosts.. That works both ways, if T dosn't scout Templar, he's screwed too? lol! Speed difference isn't massive, 1.875 vs. 2.3 - All I'm saying is, that sending 1-2 templar infront of your army isn't exactly rocket science if you know there's ghosts and it's such an easy thing to do, so why not do it? Think about what I'm saying? Well right back at ya' buddy
Not to forget that it's way easier feedbacking ghost than sniping templar since while using the minimap trick feedback will only hit units with energy, being ghosts and possibly some medivac whilst snipe hits any unit.
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Well done Mouz, congratulations gogogo best team
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no suprise and well deserved by Mouz easily the strongest SC2 foreigner team, gratz guys!
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I do believe that Mouz has won the entire thing whilst never winning a 2v2. Shows how good their 1v1 line-up is.
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On July 04 2011 15:05 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 12:44 JKira wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 ELA wrote:On July 04 2011 10:25 Dommk wrote:On July 04 2011 10:24 Yaotzin wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Hide them behind the stalkers so they don't get sniped? Then how do you spot Ghost? Having them hovering over your army is just as useless as not having them at all. You need them infront so you can feedback before getting hit by 10range EMP;s - Start using more than 1 controlgroup instead of moving your templar in in along with your deathball tt... One templar in front, feedback and storm galore.. Most protosses are smart enough to have templars on a separate control group. That doesn't exactly help though as that means they would be clumped up anyways. Having a few in with every different control group is not exactly ideal either since they will take priority over both sentries and blink stalkers, and the whole reason you have different control groups anyways is to be able to switch between those without having to tab. Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless. If you put a couple of templar in front, Terran can just snipe to not waste EMP. More and more PvT is a positional and micro battle now. Where you put your stalkers/vikings collosi/bio templar/ghosts make all the difference in which side wins in a late game battle. But don't just condescendingly bring out the "stop being bad" line on Protoss, and think about what you're saying. You have an equal chance to feedback the ghost? It takes 2 snipes to kill a templar, 1 feedback can very easily take out a ghost in 1shot, if not it renders it pretty much useless if you're about to engage which makes up for the range difference (9 feedback, 10 snipe) at an equal energy cost for both abilities (Ofc. 2 snipes if killing the templar is 50 energy, compared to 25 energy of single feedback)
"Not to mention Templar are so slow that trying to split them after seeing ghosts too late would be useless." - What? Of course you're going to get owned if you don't scout the Ghosts.. That works both ways, if T dosn't scout Templar, he's screwed too? lol! Speed difference isn't massive, 1.875 vs. 2.3 - All I'm saying is, that sending 1-2 templar infront of your army isn't exactly rocket science if you know there's ghosts and it's such an easy thing to do, so why not do it? Think about what I'm saying? Well right back at ya' buddy
I didn't bring it up since it was discussed quite a lot in the previous posts, but the whole issue is if a Terran constantly picks off observers you can't really do much about cloaked ghosts in front of the Terran army. Terran can scan before landing EMPs though.
Like I said it's all about positioning. And yes putting 1-2 templar in front is the best way to handle it but your way was to "not use one hotkey" and I explained to you why it's still difficult if you try to use different hotkeys. The best way is probably to reposition your templar every time your army moves, and yes that's difficult again because of the speed difference in army.
Anyways I don't want to turn this into a balance discussion since that's not what I originally posted for. I originally posted because you made it sound like it was easy for Protoss to negate ghosts/EMP, and I'm just saying' often times it's not.
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On July 04 2011 12:01 Goldfish wrote:
In terms of 2v2 - Has anyone thought about rebalancing it since Blizzard isn't focusing on 2v2 balancing (well not specifically that is)?
Never really watched or played much 2v2 so these are just examples of how 2v2 can changed (not suggestions) for people who do know more about 2v2 to think about:
1. Disabling resource trading completely (for example) (this can be done by making a mod [dependency] that has event - map init - Disable trading resources then just loading that mod into each 2v2 map). Mods can only have triggers by adding them in the library editor and editing the Game to load the trigger library.
2. Different maps (for example a map could have shared base but with two small ramps in a different corner of the base instead of one big ramp in the center).
3. And finally - different balancing (again it's possible by creating a "Mod" then changing the stats of units[for example], then simply loading that mod into each map). Since Blizzard focuses on 1v1 for balancing (usually), it's not always the right way for 2v2s.
Also if the community does some balancing that actually makes 2v2 more viable among all 3 race combination then Blizzard could follow with an official "different balancing" for 2v2 .
Obviously this does have a problem in that people may be caught off guard when playing 1v1 then 2v2. For example if a unit costs less resources to build in 2v2 (due to balance differences), they may forget that when they play 1v1 (though I'm not sure if this would be a problem at all actually).
Again these are just examples of what can be done for people who do know more about 2v2 (I don't know much about 2v2) to talk about since (disclaimer) I do not know much about 2v2 besides apparently T + Z is the best combo apparently?
I think better maps is enough. It sort of feels like the 2v2 map pool still consists of maps that are equivalent to Steps of War (and the sort) for 2v2s. If we still had those kind of maps for 1v1 ladder people would feel hugely different about the balance of the game. The same goes for 2v2.
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EPT
