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On July 04 2011 10:31 Mordiford wrote:I like the 2v2, I think with more competitive games played it has a lot of room to grow. I don't want to see it snuffed out prematurely.
I think it is fine to keep it but don't ever make it a bo3 because that would be misrable imo.
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On July 04 2011 10:31 BlindDruid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:28 doffe wrote:On July 04 2011 10:26 Sixes wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Or just not keep the obs in front of the army and make several? It's the same issue Zerg has against dt+blink stalker. its not at all the same thing since DTs has to get in melee range to do damage and ghosts force detection to be in front of your army. Having a Overseer in the back of your army makes blinking to kill it a suicide mission and will never be cost effective since you always can make a new OS. So protoss is restricted to one observer?!?
It is a lot different when Scan range covers almost the entire screen. Minigun had 3-4 Observers at times but that doesn't stop 2 Scans from stopping all of them.
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On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
well, I trust you have alot more insight into this then I but I still find it hard to believe that it is not worth it. You so often see these "pros" attacking with such poor unit control as a result of using only 1 group. as a zergplayer I find it to not be more trouble then it is worth. I find it to be necessery....maybe that doesnt work for toss aswell, I find it odd if it does not though.... most of the game you played with 2 as an unused bind, is it really that much of a problem binding some HTs seperatly there? instead you have to either tab or use your mouse to target them, thats seems like more hassle to me.
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On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup.
Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen.
On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps.
You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious.
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On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC...  That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain.
Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more.
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On July 04 2011 10:34 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:31 Mordiford wrote:On July 04 2011 10:30 Suffo wrote:Good tournament but take out 2v2 imo  I like the 2v2, I think with more competitive games played it has a lot of room to grow. I don't want to see it snuffed out prematurely. I think it is fine to keep it but don't ever make it a bo3 because that would be misrable imo.
Like I said, I think more games need to be played for the 2v2 so I have no problem with it being a Bo3 and I'm glad they're making the next season's 2v2's a Bo3.
If it's just a Bo1, it's sort a throw-away match since a lot can go right or wrong in a Bo1, a Bo3 is better in my opinion.
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almost every korean pro toss uses diferent hotkey for his stalkers/colo+ht/zealot+sentries if u want to be active with blink stalkers u have to do that
btw will be there any replaypack ?
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I think the solution would be to simply make several observers with observer speed upgrades so you can easily replace a lost obs with another one... Cloak ghost are quite problematic.
While I did notice the 1 control grp, I don't think it is that realistic to expect every toss player to be able to spread all his immobile HTs away from each other to a point where EMP can only hit one at a time.
Zealot archon wouldn't work that well once the ghost count piles up high enough that EMPs easily nullify archons. Ghosts also do bonus dmg vs light.
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On July 04 2011 10:31 BlindDruid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:28 doffe wrote:On July 04 2011 10:26 Sixes wrote:On July 04 2011 10:21 MechKing wrote:
How are protoss going to deal with vikings sniping the observer? Just build cannons everywhere? Or just not keep the obs in front of the army and make several? It's the same issue Zerg has against dt+blink stalker. its not at all the same thing since DTs has to get in melee range to do damage and ghosts force detection to be in front of your army. Having a Overseer in the back of your army makes blinking to kill it a suicide mission and will never be cost effective since you always can make a new OS. So protoss is restricted to one observer?!?
this is not my point, it is not the same thing cause to be able to detect ghosts you have to have the obs inrange of the vikings. To be able to detect DTs you do not have to have the OS in range of the stalkers and blinking up to snipe it will in 99% of the cases not be cost effective. This is probably why we seldom see this strategy used in PvZ. Atleast I have not seen it.
Ofcourse toss can and should have more then 1 obs, especially with ghosts about but that doesnt change the fact that the situations are completly different. And I am mainly a zergplayer so do not think this is a toss whining.
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On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC... That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more.
Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth.
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On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious.
I've seen you try some stuff with Warp Prisms to dodge EMPs but once Vikings are out, that's not much of an option, if splitting isn't possible at that point, what do you think is a viable method of dealing with that situation in-game? Just switching tech? Trying to micro out good feedbacks?
Just wondering.
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On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious.
I find it equally hilarious to see a pro claiming using more then 1 bind is not worth it. Noone is claiming that you can therefore save 5HTs from 12ghosts but in general surely you agree that the army control should be improved if you do not use 1 control group for your entire army. The reason thorzains control where so good is because he used, *gasp* 3 groups. 1: MMM 2: Ghosts 3: Vikings.
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Well, congrats to Moussports. coL went down pretty easily imo.
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On July 04 2011 10:38 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC... That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more. Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth.
LOL Khaydarin Amulet nerf in that case.
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On July 04 2011 10:38 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC... That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more. Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth.
You do realize that it is not the army composition that most people bitch imba about, its the fact that you can warp in 25 units instantly while chronoing colo off 4-5 nexi to remax to overwhelm the terran regardless of how badly you lost the engagement.
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On July 04 2011 10:41 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious. I find it equally hilarious to see a pro claiming using more then 1 bind is not worth it. Noone is claiming that you can therefore save 5HTs from 12ghosts but in general surely you agree that the army control should be improved if you do not use 1 control group for your entire army. The reason thorzains control where so good is because he used, *gasp* 3 groups. 1: MMM 2: Ghosts 3: Vikings.
Ok. Say I used 3 control groups. 1 for colossi, 2 for gateway army, and 3 for high Templar, what would have changed.
um...nothing? Anyways, I didn't come here to argue this, if you want to continue the discussion feel free to PM me.
On July 04 2011 10:39 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious. I've seen you try some stuff with Warp Prisms to dodge EMPs but once Vikings are out, that's not much of an option, if splitting isn't possible at that point, what do you think is a viable method of dealing with that situation in-game? Just switching tech? Trying to micro out good feedbacks? Just wondering.
If they don't have vikings out I could see it working, but warp prisms would get targeted down pretty easily if they do.
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Its not a viable situation to be in. Minigun was already behind when those engagements were occuring. When the ghost count piles that high, it doesn't really matter if you split your army, because the number of emps they have is ridiculous (12 ghosts x potentially 2 emps each). And the reason he couldn't make a ton of observers was because he needed colossus. Not to mention thorzain had control of most of the map. That being said minigun did have some faults, particularly with throwing away units at the bottom right planetary fortress.
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On July 04 2011 10:41 vectorix108 wrote:
Well, congrats to Moussports. coL went down pretty easily imo.
People were mentioning this earlier but there were quite a few bad draws for Complexity for the finals, Morrow getting Cruncher, Mana getting a PvT and Thorzain getting a TvP. Even using those three players, if the matchups were switched around a bit, it might have gone differently but regardless, Mouz definitely earned their win today, they played consistently well throughout the entire Master's Cup.
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On July 04 2011 10:44 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:38 IVN wrote:On July 04 2011 10:35 RisingTide wrote:On July 04 2011 10:15 mikyaJ wrote:On July 04 2011 10:00 Lylat wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 Olinim wrote:On July 04 2011 09:58 RisingTide wrote:
Thorzain has officially figured out TvP That's why hes been easily stomped by MC in HSC... That's why he's the only foreign terran that took games/series against MC (I think?). TvP is statistically ThorZain's worst MU, and that's fallen since TSL when he had over a 75% win rate. If you were to say someone "figured" out the match, it would be Polt, you know, the guy who is 4-0 vs MC, not 5-8 (which is ThorZain's record vs. MC), and at 100% win rate in GSL games? ಠ_ಠ Not ThorZain. Oh by no means do I think that Thorzain is the best Terran (or even better than Polt), even though he won against Mini just now there were definately some serious mechanical and decision making flaws in his game. I just think that the style of play (Heavy ghost, rauder, medivac, viking) is absurdly powerful and it's always surprised me that it never caught on more. Probably way more powerful, than anything Protoss have. The Terran weakness in late game TvP is IMO nothing more but a myth. You do realize that it is not the army composition that most people bitch imba about, its the fact that you can warp in 25 units instantly while chronoing colo off 4-5 nexi to remax to overwhelm the terran regardless of how badly you lost the engagement.
you can't against Ghosts melting away your shield AND energy obviosly.
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On July 04 2011 10:44 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:41 doffe wrote:On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious. I find it equally hilarious to see a pro claiming using more then 1 bind is not worth it. Noone is claiming that you can therefore save 5HTs from 12ghosts but in general surely you agree that the army control should be improved if you do not use 1 control group for your entire army. The reason thorzains control where so good is because he used, *gasp* 3 groups. 1: MMM 2: Ghosts 3: Vikings. Ok. Say I used 3 control groups. 1 for colossi, 2 for gateway army, and 3 for high Templar, what would have changed. um...nothing? Anyways, I didn't come here to argue this, if you want to continue the discussion feel free to PM me. Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 10:39 Mordiford wrote:On July 04 2011 10:35 coL.Minigun wrote:On July 04 2011 10:31 Slakter wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
Not if you have the APM. Look at how for instance Artosis split his army when he played Zerg, he played with a BW-setup where every unit had its own controlgroup and in many cases he split even those into different groups. Storms did nothing against him. If you have the speed to press 1click2click3click or 1a2a3a fast enough then there is actually no excuse for having your entire army on one controlgroup. Okay well I probably don't have the apm, and I disagree, it wouldn't have helped any doing it that way. You cannot protect 6-7 ht's from 12 ghosts with personal cloaking, it just won't happen. On July 04 2011 10:31 Mojar wrote:On July 04 2011 10:27 coL.Minigun wrote:
Using 2-3 hotkeys is more trouble than it's worth. it doesn't help dodge emps any more than having them on one control group. There's a reason not many people put them on separate hotkeys....
Thorzain has really nice army control, he played really well.
No if you don't at least protect your HTs, your playing badly nothing else to it. Though i do agree Thorzain's army control was amazing, kiting back under his vikings away from Collosus fire and protecting his ghosts after they fired their emps. You cannot protect your 5-6 ht's from 12 ghosts, saying if I put them on different hotkeys I can somehow magically save them is pretty hilarious. I've seen you try some stuff with Warp Prisms to dodge EMPs but once Vikings are out, that's not much of an option, if splitting isn't possible at that point, what do you think is a viable method of dealing with that situation in-game? Just switching tech? Trying to micro out good feedbacks? Just wondering. If they don't have vikings out I could see it working, but warp prisms would get targeted down pretty easily if they do.
Nah, I have no real need to argue it, I am well aware that you are a far superior player to me so you probably have good reason for it, I just dont agree. Maybe im focusing on completly the wrong things while playing toss then. But I do find it takes MORE apm to have it all in one group due to the hassle of tabbing etc (atleast when microing HTs, Sentries and Blink at once f.ex. I find it 10times easier to just use 3groups). But I will let it go
GL in the future tourneys Minigun, all things considered I think you played very well and if I ever get to meet you I will be happy to have my 4groups of zergunits be utterly destroyed by your mastergroup! :D
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EPT
