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NO BALANCE WHINING |
On April 30 2011 17:53 bEnBo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:48 Elementsu wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 nick1689 wrote:
Lol its funny, if July opted to instead go for an all-in 2 base Roach attack, instead of expanding, everyone here would be talking about how awesome his play is... Yet as soon as any toss all-ins everyone QQs Because toss allins are very good an easy to execute, and you can win just doing them like anypro, while zerg allins need better execution and more thought behind it. This probably the worst thing I have ever read on team liquid. Seriously, go post on the blizzard forums and leave this thread. This thread has no place for bronze newb qq zerg balance whining. You have no idea how tight the timings where on that all in nor how difficult it was to execute, and you were probably cheering yesterday when Losira allin'd Alicia with that roach ling push that is near impossible to stop.
What do you mean the timing was tight? He ran around for 1-2 minutes before even engaging.
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And think about it, july took his 3rd before his 2nd hatch finishing hatching, a 2 base timing is exactly what anypro need
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On April 30 2011 17:53 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:48 HolyArrow wrote:On April 30 2011 17:46 Footler wrote:
Enjoy the next patch anypro. The next patch doesn't even have any effect on what anyPro did in game 3, I think. Are you kidding? Slower warp gate research time, smaller pylon radius. Might seem small but it's a big deal right there. Anypro won't be able to mass up as fast and in the big battles, he won't be able to fight as efficiently. 7 warp gate rushes like that won't be economical anymore. Of course, since anypro is prone to all-ins, he'll probably benefit from the shorter gateway unit build time. Or he could still go for this crazy 7 warpgate rush, which will be a lot less efficient and economical.
The push came so late that an extra 40 seconds on warpgate wont change much. Pylon radius wont change anything either since he had the pylon right up against the cliff wall by july's third. If anything it's the changed timings on gateway units that could change it.
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On April 30 2011 17:54 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:46 ThePieRate wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 Rarak wrote:
These live reports are getting so lame with all tge zerg crying. When Losira crushed alicia noone claimed imba, july just let it slip, anypro is decent.
Move on Losira didn't cheese out a player who is obviously better than him. This the same reason why no one likes Rain. He cheesed Nestea out of a GSL with bunker rushes and marine scv all ins. You mean like last season when july cheesed mvp out of the group stage?
That was more funny that the best terran in the world couldn't stop a baneling bust (at least to myself).
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It seems the white posted notice at the top of this thread was in in vain. As much as I can sympathize for your lack of respect for AnyPro, you have to admit, it was a very well exhibited 2 wins. Those builds were executed perfectly, July didn't counter them right, and then made a few bad micro decisions.
You're going to choose not to listen to reason here, and I can understand that, but it's not like you have to fight with everyone who thinks something different to you.
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On April 30 2011 17:52 Moofadoobada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:49 _Darwin_ wrote:On April 30 2011 17:48 Moofadoobada wrote:
This isn't a balance whine, but from a zerg point of view i'm not actually aware of what would stop that. Does he need hydras and spines...like a hydra roach army instead of zerglings?
I thought the flank would help but it was at a choke so it only cost i think 2 forcefields to block it...I think rushing hydras and maybe skipping burrow movement might help...not sure.
Good rush by anypro, more learning for zergs to do. He should have roach+ling all-ined the Nexus first. Haha, well I'm sure some P's will start doing this on ladder maybe I can figure out a way to beat it. Theres a post above saying if he just burrow moves out when the ff's go up he would win the fight, but I feel he would lose his hatch and drones...not sure that would be a good trade unless he wins the fight convincingly and keeps his supply up enough to just counter and win.
You can't let P get econ lead with Nexus first. He scouted and still got absolutely decimated, it has nothing to do with burrow moving a handful of roaches. He should have double expod or all-ined, probably the latter.
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On April 30 2011 17:54 WingEn wrote:
July took a risk and went for a 3rd fast expansion and anypro reacted by going 7-gate all-in with Observer to counter Burrow (which is the Zerg counter to normal 6-7 gates all-in and July will definitely get that. Also, July didn't know of the Robo). In my opinion, anypro made all the right decisions which perfectly countered what July did.
I don't think anypro knew about the 3rd expansion till he decided to push. I'm not sure though. Can't recall him scouting it. He might have sneaked a probe out or probably just assumed that there would have been an expansion by then.
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On April 30 2011 17:55 sc2olorin wrote:
1. Make 4-6 spine crawlers at the natural.
2. Force engagements near third base to whittle down sentry energy/kill sentries while using burrow movement to keep as many roaches alive as possible (buying time for spines to get up)
3. Move back to natural and defend to victory.
Do you understand that spines cost drones, and money? And Roaches also cost money?
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On April 30 2011 17:55 Skipton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:53 bEnBo wrote:On April 30 2011 17:48 Elementsu wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 nick1689 wrote:
Lol its funny, if July opted to instead go for an all-in 2 base Roach attack, instead of expanding, everyone here would be talking about how awesome his play is... Yet as soon as any toss all-ins everyone QQs Because toss allins are very good an easy to execute, and you can win just doing them like anypro, while zerg allins need better execution and more thought behind it. This probably the worst thing I have ever read on team liquid. Seriously, go post on the blizzard forums and leave this thread. This thread has no place for bronze newb qq zerg balance whining. You have no idea how tight the timings where on that all in nor how difficult it was to execute, and you were probably cheering yesterday when Losira allin'd Alicia with that roach ling push that is near impossible to stop. What do you mean the timing was tight? He ran around for 1-2 minutes before even engaging.
ran around? he was waiting for his proxy pylon so he can make another waves of units, as well setting up another pylon at the bottom of the ramp
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On April 30 2011 17:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:48 Elementsu wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 nick1689 wrote:
Lol its funny, if July opted to instead go for an all-in 2 base Roach attack, instead of expanding, everyone here would be talking about how awesome his play is... Yet as soon as any toss all-ins everyone QQs Because toss allins are very good an easy to execute, and you can win just doing them like anypro, while zerg allins need better execution and more thought behind it. 1. make drones 2. make roaches 3. kill everything he has because all he has are sentries and 2 cannons 4. win the game doesn't seem that hard to me
go ahead and try it then. try busting through FFs with your roaches. laughable
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On April 30 2011 17:55 Rebel_lion wrote:
a protoss just outmassed a zerg. Zerg had more bases.
Protoss has most cost effective units plus the easiest army to mass (warp in helps alot)
I'm just stunned. wow.
Toss was allin and the zerg was not.
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On April 30 2011 17:55 nick1689 wrote:
Prove to me that he decided to all-in before the game started, instead of playing it out in-game
So on what information he scouted do you think he decided to Allin?
I can't think of any information he got that would make an Allin more viable than a macro based game.
All the information he needed was the finals between MC and July. He knew July was bad at defending Warpgate allins.
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On April 30 2011 17:53 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:48 HolyArrow wrote:On April 30 2011 17:46 Footler wrote:
Enjoy the next patch anypro. The next patch doesn't even have any effect on what anyPro did in game 3, I think. Are you kidding? Slower warp gate research time, smaller pylon radius. Might seem small but it's a big deal right there. Anypro won't be able to mass up as fast and in the big battles, he won't be able to fight as efficiently. 7 warp gate rushes like that won't be economical anymore. Of course, since anypro is prone to all-ins, he'll probably benefit from the shorter gateway unit build time. Or he could still go for this crazy 7 warpgate rush, which will be a lot less efficient and economical.
What? I don't really understand your argument. A warp gate research time nerf weakens early rushes, but I don't see why it would change a midgame 6/7-gate attack. You just have to make extra units out of your gateways in the extra time it takes for WG to finish researching, and once it's done and you enter the midgame on 2base, it's pretty much the same scenario. The pylon radius is negligible at best - it was meant to nerf warping into bases in PvP, and a slightly smaller radius does nothing to change the pylon's ability to instantly reinforce in a 6/7 gate push against Zerg.
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On April 30 2011 17:55 ZapRoffo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:54 Alpina wrote:On April 30 2011 17:51 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 30 2011 17:49 Skipton wrote:
The issue is that what AnyPro did was not really difficult to do. Defending a 7 gate timing attack is MUCH harder than executing it. I would agree...but I've never seen this build executed this perfectly before. His timing was immaculate. July's was not, so he lost. Be so kind to explain why July's timing was bad? lol He made everything right, scouted in time and got upgrades and roaches in time. Maybe he attacked in bad position but you can't do much about FFs anyway.. Maybe not have 90% of his roaches bash their heads against FFs for a good 10-15 seconds while being picked off but back off and then go back?
You dont outproduce an all in toss by letting expansions die. You have to overwhelm them when they have the upgrade advantage.
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On April 30 2011 17:57 GwSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:55 sc2olorin wrote:
1. Make 4-6 spine crawlers at the natural.
2. Force engagements near third base to whittle down sentry energy/kill sentries while using burrow movement to keep as many roaches alive as possible (buying time for spines to get up)
3. Move back to natural and defend to victory. Do you understand that spines cost drones, and money? And Roaches also cost money?
Do you understand what he suggested is well worth the money ? +july was sitting on 3 bases compare to anypro's 2?
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On April 30 2011 17:52 whiterabbit wrote:
I am disgusted by amount of tears from Zerg players on LR threads. First it was funny, but lately it became just stupid. Go back to Idra fanclub and whine about everything that kills you.
And is there even a way for Protoss to win and not get flamed? Early game win = flame, mid game win = flame, late game win = flame... and then when some lovely Zerg player annihilates some Protoss with all kind of gimmicky strats that's all fine and justified.
I am not P player and I cheered for July but amount of scrubs who are trying to justify their Bronze leagues on LR topics is just too pathetic.
This condescending attitude is really uncalled for. A lot of zergs feel the matchup is imba, so they're going to talk about it on the forums, and calling them Bronze league scrubs isn't going to change anything.
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On April 30 2011 17:56 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:54 WingEn wrote:
July took a risk and went for a 3rd fast expansion and anypro reacted by going 7-gate all-in with Observer to counter Burrow (which is the Zerg counter to normal 6-7 gates all-in and July will definitely get that. Also, July didn't know of the Robo). In my opinion, anypro made all the right decisions which perfectly countered what July did. I don't think anypro knew about the 3rd expansion till he decided to push. I'm not sure though. Can't recall him scouting it. He might have sneaked a probe out or probably just assumed that there would have been an expansion by then.
It's a safe assumption.
What was really smart of Anypro was that when he knew he was scouted, he decided to wait a bit, get robo and +1 armor as well.
Instead of going all in at once with a smaller army, which - likely - could have been held off.
That was, imho, a decision made because he was so thoroughly scouted.
The best possible decision July could have made would have been to go ling hydra with a few spines at his third, and in the choke leading to his natural. But if not for the robotics, burrow movement is the best choice. So yeah ... what do you do.
edit: The only thing that would weaken this sort of play is the warp in mechanics since it removes defenders advantage. Which would require a massive rebalancing otherwise protoss would be too weak. So not too easy, and besides the point.
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On April 30 2011 17:50 navara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:45 Rifty wrote:
He has +1/+1 and a robo, in other words better upgrades + better tech than July, how is that an all in?
You people need to stick to your 15min no rush BGH games... reinforcing from 7 gate out of 2 base with no probe production he has to do damage cuz he can't expo you can argu that it's not an all in because he will do damage anyway since zerg (maybe) apparently can't do much more than july just di
His 2 base was fully saturated already, plus he had a robo to tech to colossus if his attack failed. Why can't he expo if the attack failed? He would have only had to stop half a wave of production to get enough money... July was too greedy and just didn't have enough units/upgrades to deal with the attack.
People just want every game to be a 200/200 macro game with carriers motherships and every tech unit, but anybody thats played SC for more then 5 minutes know that just doesn't happen..
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On April 30 2011 17:55 Skipton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:53 bEnBo wrote:On April 30 2011 17:48 Elementsu wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 nick1689 wrote:
Lol its funny, if July opted to instead go for an all-in 2 base Roach attack, instead of expanding, everyone here would be talking about how awesome his play is... Yet as soon as any toss all-ins everyone QQs Because toss allins are very good an easy to execute, and you can win just doing them like anypro, while zerg allins need better execution and more thought behind it. This probably the worst thing I have ever read on team liquid. Seriously, go post on the blizzard forums and leave this thread. This thread has no place for bronze newb qq zerg balance whining. You have no idea how tight the timings where on that all in nor how difficult it was to execute, and you were probably cheering yesterday when Losira allin'd Alicia with that roach ling push that is near impossible to stop. What do you mean the timing was tight? He ran around for 1-2 minutes before even engaging.
he ran around to wait for his obs and +1 armor to finish..
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On April 30 2011 17:55 Skipton wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 17:53 bEnBo wrote:On April 30 2011 17:48 Elementsu wrote:On April 30 2011 17:45 nick1689 wrote:
Lol its funny, if July opted to instead go for an all-in 2 base Roach attack, instead of expanding, everyone here would be talking about how awesome his play is... Yet as soon as any toss all-ins everyone QQs Because toss allins are very good an easy to execute, and you can win just doing them like anypro, while zerg allins need better execution and more thought behind it. This probably the worst thing I have ever read on team liquid. Seriously, go post on the blizzard forums and leave this thread. This thread has no place for bronze newb qq zerg balance whining. You have no idea how tight the timings where on that all in nor how difficult it was to execute, and you were probably cheering yesterday when Losira allin'd Alicia with that roach ling push that is near impossible to stop. What do you mean the timing was tight? He ran around for 1-2 minutes before even engaging.
He was setting up backup pylons while waiting for an observer and and the armor to finish. Why dont you wipe your tears away and actually watch the game instead of crying about imbalance.
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EPT
