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rushian
United Kingdom568 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:23 pdd wrote: I thought that the new patch reduced the number of 4 gates and 1 base PvPs...  there was only two successful 4gates, and one of those was a defensive 4-gate. The only successful aggressive 4-gate was when MC got his units caught out of position. It wasn't an effective strategy for XiaoT | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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kochujang
Germany1226 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:28 rushian wrote: there was only two successful 4gates, and one of those was a defensive 4-gate. The only successful aggressive 4-gate was when MC got his units caught out of position. It wasn't an effective strategy for XiaoT Yeah, but they were all still heavy one base PvPs where both players did not even have any intention of expanding or they'd be dead and the tech route was pretty much the same blink stalker/immortal to counter blink. Just was hoping for more diversity I guess (archons/chargelot archon?) | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
I think MC basically has a better understanding of PvP than XiaoT. Not surprising, considering his experience. It seems that he's basically figured out that the new patch favors defensive one-base play. His builds are razor thin vs. 4-gate but they do hold it and give him a tech advantage. Presumably, he would attack if he saw an expansion. When that doesn't happen, he'd wait for his tech choice to kick in - which seems to be immortal blink stalker, generally. XiaoT is still operating in the early post-patch meta-game, and arguably the foreigner meta-game, where it is believed that the best style is to go defensive 4 gate into blink stalkers or 3 gate robo into colossi. Basically, the 4 gate player tries to win with the 4 gate, but if the opponent FFs him out, he transitions into blink and crushes the techer as he's teching. It's a great style against colossi play (and will generally beat it) and XiaoT obviously knows how to hold DTs with the build. But I doubt he has experienced this immortal + blink stalker one-base play from MC. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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rushian
United Kingdom568 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:35 pdd wrote: Yeah, but they were all still heavy one base PvPs where both players did not even have any intention of expanding or they'd be dead and the tech route was pretty much the same blink stalker/immortal to counter blink. Just was hoping for more diversity I guess (archons/chargelot archon?) it seemed to me like MC wanted to play longer games (3 gate or 2-gate openings), but XiaoT just wanted to 4gate (-/+ blink) all the time so MC had to react to that. I think the metalopolis game would have gone longer if it wasnt close positions | ||
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dragoonier
Germany154 Posts
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:41 Azarkon wrote: Even the one-base builds by MC were close holds. If he expo'd it'd have been auto-lose. I think MC basically has a better understanding of PvP than XiaoT. Not surprising, considering his experience. It seems that he's basically figured out that the new patch favors defensive one-base play. Presumably, he would attack every time he saw an expansion. And when he doesn't, he'd wait for his tech choice to kick in - which seems to be immortal blink stalker, generally. The main issue is the number of low league players who complained about 4gates and so on. PvP was actually better when 4gates was the best opening, because games were mostly decided by micro, and weren't about rock paper scissor nor did they look like these camping snoozefest with sentries. The main problem to me are sentries which are destroying this MU and Protoss more generally since Blizzard balanced all protoss units around their syngergy with sentries. Protoss needs something to destroy sentries (before archons/colossi) because watching 2 players doing nothing except macroing 5 rax with MBS and camping near a ramp is the negation of entertainment. If a long-game in PvP induce systematically 10-15 minutes of intense camping with sentries I would rather play and watch a 6 minutes all-in. | ||
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rushian
United Kingdom568 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:50 TeWy wrote: The main issue is the number of low league players who complained about 4gates and so on. PvP was actually better when 4gates was the best opening, because games were mostly decided by micro, and weren't about rock paper scissor nor did they look like these camping snoozefest with sentries. The main problem to me are sentries which are destroying this MU and Protoss more generally since Blizzard balanced all protoss units around their syngergy with sentries. Protoss needs something to destroy sentries (before archons/colossi) because watching 2 players doing nothing except macroing 5 rax with MBS and camping near a ramp is the negation of entertainment. If a long-game in PvP induce systematically 10-15 minutes of intense camping with sentries I would rather play and watch a 6 minutes all-in. macroing 5rax? there was only one game like you describe in this series, and that was more to do with the close positions on metalopolis making any expansions really easy to pressure/block. the match up isn't being "destroyed", it's improving. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On June 11 2011 22:07 rushian wrote: macroing 5rax? there was only one game like you describe in this series, and that was more to do with the close positions on metalopolis making any expansions really easy to pressure/block. the match up isn't being "destroyed", it's improving. What I mean by 5 rax is either 3 gates/1 robo, or 4 gates / 1 robo . All the games to me were like that. Since the defender had sentries, there were only 2 viable options. Either try a blink all-in or camp near the ramp. The MU isn't improving. The thing is that each time we see something different, a bit out of the norm, they are self-claimed oracles who claim that this will be the future of the MU, that as the game progresses we will see more and more of that. We heard that about BC in TvT, ultralisks in ZvZ, warp-prism in PvP... All these people are saying the same thing since Beta 0.1. I believe that they should think more rationally and try to figure out precisely why the games are being plaid like that, and why sometimes the game deviate out of the norm. Superficially talking about few details like miscontrol mistakes and so on is good for commentators but since we're on a progaming forum I think we can go deeper than that. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On June 11 2011 21:35 pdd wrote: The game on Meta was more due to the close positions stopping either player from really being able to expand safely. The others were just each player going in for the kill.Yeah, but they were all still heavy one base PvPs where both players did not even have any intention of expanding or they'd be dead and the tech route was pretty much the same blink stalker/immortal to counter blink. Just was hoping for more diversity I guess (archons/chargelot archon?) XiaoT's build seemed to be a 4gate that only becomes aggressive if he manages to get an advantage from the initial Stalker/Stalker/Zealot/Probe micro. On Meta, his position was even more advantageous than on Testbug, he was much closer to MC, proxy pylon was closer, but nothing came out of the initial engagement so he just backed out and teched to blink. It was pretty clear that MC was going to hold his 4gate given that on Testbug his 3gate almost defended with 2 Stalkers down. PvP isn't very forgiving when a player makes mistakes, most of the one basing happened because one guy stepped a bit too far allowing the other to end the game. Close position Meta is also pretty bullshit in Robo vs Blink, nothing can really come out of it. Blink Stalkers can hit you at the perfect timing if you try to go Colossus, and likewise, base trades for Blink Stalkers end up badly since the other guy can trash your base then come back to save his. These one bases were not by choice a-la Banshee/Tank/Marine, but more reactive where one player sees a weakness and capitalize Protoss needs something to destroy sentries (before archons/colossi) because watching 2 players doing nothing except macroing 5 rax with MBS and camping near a ramp is the negation of entertainment. No they don't...camping ramps is probably the least effective in PvP unless you have gained such an advantage the game should be over but you just choose to take a safer router and macro up than lose to some micro mistakes. Camping ramps is such a hard decision in PvP, you really have to be sure because in any event you can't get up his ramp either, if he has a Proxy pylon somewhere on the map when you can have your mineral line destroyed by Zealots which you can't stop in time, if he is going blink you can be caught off guard, and similarly if the other guy is going Colossus then he has no intention of going down the ramp anyway and just makes it easier to push you because you no longer can get in position by the time he gets to your base. If that Blink finished 2-3 seconds earlier, XiaoT would have lost the game, he must have some insane internal knowledge of timings, or maybe just lucky because a Blink down would have killed him, or at the very least lost him every sentry EDIT: My bad, I thought you meant camping the bottom of an opponents ramp, I misread. In either case I think it shouldn't happen. Camping ramps is the only viable way to tech, other wise there is nothing stopping the other guy form just making units and pushing through. Units are much more valuable for Protoss as opposed to Zerg/Terran who generally can afford to lose low mineral units and teching is very costly, ramp FF is the only thing keeping PvP from going to utter shit | ||
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omgwtfbbq.x
United States20 Posts
http://sc2.plu.cn/interviews/2011-06-11/29921.html + Show Spoiler + Q. How does it feel after your win? A. This is my first time in China, feels like the fans are very welcoming.Plus I won the match, so feeling pretty good. Q. Your opponent has been using 4BG tactic (4gate), what do you think on that? A. Its a tactic I am very familiar with, so very confident and comfortable in defending it. First game I was caught off guard but the later ones were a lot better. Q. Any thoughts on the final match tomorrow? A. I heard XiaoT is the strongest in China, so I will be more relaxed for the match tomorrow. Q. What do you think are the difference between Chinese and Korean players? A. I feel like there isn't much difference, and we use similar tactics. I was able to win in the mental battle. Q. In the GSL match during today's noontime, the player that beat you before (Alicia) lost to Polt, thus leading to a top 4 of all terran, any opinion on that? A. T does have an advantage in that matchup, but they aren't unbeatable. P needs to practice very hard in order to be able to beat T. After a lot of experience I've gained new understanding in that matchup, so I have a lot of confident in it now. Q. In the recent MLG match, you got second place (should be a typo, since he got third) due to losing to Losira, what did you think about MLG columbus? A. There are a lot of matches in MLG, getting a first in your group has a very big advantage, so I was very tired throughout all the matches. Starswar gives a lot more time for the matches so I was able to play a lot better. Q. Any words for the Chinese viewers? A. Sadly this time there is a big language barrier so I wasn't able to communicate with them. But I hope to see more Chinese players in future matches. Q. Last question, for XiaoT, what do you think would be a proper placement for him in the GSLs? A. I am acutally not too familiar with him, but since we are able to meet in the semi finals in this tournament, I feel like he would have no problem at all holding his own in Code A at least. | ||
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tuho133
120 Posts
Q. In the GSL match during today's noontime, the player that beat you before (Alicia) lost to Polt, thus leading to a top 4 of all terran, any opinion on that? A. T does have an advantage in that matchup, but they aren't unbeatable. P needs to practice very hard in order to be able to beat T. After a lot of experience I've gained new understanding in that matchup, so I have a lot of confident in it now. Remember his words, we'll see how MC dominate next GSL season  | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
Q. In the GSL match during today's noontime, the player that beat you before (Alicia) lost to Polt, thus leading to a top 4 of all terran, any opinion on that? A. T does have an advantage in that matchup, but they aren't unbeatable. P needs to practice very hard in order to be able to beat T. After a lot of experience I've gained new understanding in that matchup, so I have a lot of confident in it now. Does this new insight involve getting 3-0 upgrades even without colossi? I saw him doing that vs Thorzain/Select in MLG and it really baffled me. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15723 Posts
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Stanlot
United States5742 Posts
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ragnorr
Denmark6097 Posts
On June 12 2011 02:53 Stanlot wrote: When are the finals being held? Tommorow | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On June 12 2011 02:43 ForTheDr3am wrote: Does this new insight involve getting 3-0 upgrades even without colossi? I saw him doing that vs Thorzain/Select in MLG and it really baffled me. I thinks so.. remember when Tyler started doing that FE dual forge build, I think thats going to start coming back into play, except a faster transition to colossi or storm.. Essentially, protoss requires at minimum 2-2 upgrades to stay on even footing with MMM and ghost armies these days IMO, I always rush upgrades lately and pray I survive til 2-2 | ||
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ForTheDr3am
842 Posts
On June 12 2011 05:01 Skyze wrote: I thinks so.. remember when Tyler started doing that FE dual forge build, I think thats going to start coming back into play, except a faster transition to colossi or storm.. Essentially, protoss requires at minimum 2-2 upgrades to stay on even footing with MMM and ghost armies these days IMO, I always rush upgrades lately and pray I survive til 2-2 Yes, but MC rushed for 3 weapons 0 armor, without any kind of Colossi on the field. It seemed to be incredibly fragile and he nearly lost the game at one point or two because his Zealots died way too fast. If you aren't going to get Colossi and only play with one forge, armor seems to be far superior against MMM, so I'm surprised MC chose to do otherwise. I think going for 1-3 (+1 weapons so that DTs can OHKO scvs) would have worked out better for him. | ||
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