EPT[TSL] Ro16 Day 2 - Page 154
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36402 Posts
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Bear4188
United States1797 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:01 Arnfasta wrote: Would it be fair to say that another thing is that many of the Korean pros' games are very accessible on English sites but that the reverse isn't true for Koreans (European and North American pros' replays on Korean sites)? I'm not sure myself but I was thinking in trying to prepare for your opponent, the person with more information also has an advantage going into the matches. NaDa has the resources of oGs available to him if he wants to find replays of his opponent. This includes the coach (who IIRC has very good English) and also the connections with TL who could certainly point Nada towards the big English replay sites and the TLPD which would have  Kas's past tournament results. There's no excuse for not preparing for someone with as much exposure as Kas. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/11bPo.png) | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:54 CanucksJC wrote: Someone mentioned lag doesn't make you forget supply depots, but really if you think about it, lag has everything to do with it.... I'm not saying there WAS significant lag, but if there was, you start playing like shit cuz lag doesn't let you play crisply the way you'd want to. Just saying. I wonder if this was something the organizers foresaw when getting this started... Yah sure Kas beat NaDa 3-0 that's great, but was that really dependent on pure skill alone? We saw what happened in WC when it was played in a LAN setting, even though that wasn't very representative of the foreigners. Also, if Kas was THAT good, there is no reason why we shouldn't know about it. There is a REASON why some are more famous and some are more underground. If the guy was good, you'd see people praising this guy and we wouldn't call this an 'upset'. But the fact is, people don't really know him, period. You can't get around that IMO and I think people are being a little too defensive of Kas. :s If you read the first 5 or 10 pages, you'll see that almost everyone predicted Kas to rape Nada. He also was featured in several (not 100% sure) Tournament Round-Ups and had the highest ELO for a very long time for international player in the TLPD | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:43 OnlineHero wrote: Nada supply blocked himself multiple times. He had massive ques in his barracks. His expansions were always late compared to Kas. No constant worker production. How is this related to lag? I think everything you just said there could be relatted to lag as you would never see nada do those things in a Lan setting or the GSL so if not lag what is the reason he plays so much different here fromm when we see him in the GSL. Also he did play fairly well against TLO but lag is not always the same it depends on what time of day you play, how many people are using the server at the time among other things, so many people talking about lag treat it like its stable and if one day someone performs well and it doesnt look like theirs lag , that means there is never lag, The same goes for the opposite. | ||
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TheBanana
Norway2183 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:54 CanucksJC wrote: Also, if Kas was THAT good, there is no reason why we shouldn't know about it. There is a REASON why some are more famous and some are more underground. If the guy was good, you'd see people praising this guy and we wouldn't call this an 'upset'. But the fact is, people don't really know him, period. You can't get around that IMO and I think people are being a little too defensive of Kas. :s Just because you don't know a player doesn't make him underground. A LOT of people expected this result. You don't have to go further than the first page of this thread to see that. If you follow the European scene you know that Kas is a beast. It's as simple as that. To me reading this I feel the same way I would if someone not following GSL comes in to tell me that MC is underground and should be more famous if he was really good. | ||
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vrok
Sweden2541 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:02 TalkSick wrote: Why isn't there a "Like" button on TeamLiquid.net!? Because it's vain and gay. A good post stands out on its own. MC vs Thorzain and Kas vs Adel is going to be soooo awesome! Also, it's really hilarious to read claims that Kas is an unknown... Get a clue please. | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:00 Lanker wrote: I really do think that people are getting way ahead of themselves here. Kas beat NaDa in one Bo5 which was played in, arguably, an unfair environment (lag), and suddenly people are calling Kas the best terran in the world. NaDa played HORRIBLY in that game. Whether it was down to lag I have no idea but I really do fail to see how Kas played so amazingly. All that happened was that Kas had more units than NaDa as a result of NaDa playing way below his potential. This match in no way proves that Europeans are the gods of sc2 or that Kas is better than NaDa so all you biased Europeans can shut your mouths until Kas wins a major tournament such as the GSL in fair playing conditions. You really just ignore all the comments stating that latency from Ukraine to NA is about as bad as from Korea. And that Nada didn't practise much lately. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:01 Arnfasta wrote: Would it be fair to say that another thing is that many of the Korean pros' games are very accessible on English sites but that the reverse isn't true for Koreans (European and North American pros' replays on Korean sites)? I'm not sure myself but I was thinking in trying to prepare for your opponent, the person with more information also has an advantage going into the matches. Yes, surely the underdog has a massive advantage in terms of preparation. Look at the Koreans' interviews: Every one of them said they don't know anything about their opponent but they think they will win. Well, here's where that gets you  | ||
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Jman5
United States745 Posts
1. Kas was able to get his natural up significantly earlier than nada because he built it at his natural and that reaper sniped the worker. 2. Kas was slowly able to eat into Nada's force while losing next to nothing until the big engagements. (remember those free marines at the xel naga?) 3. It appears that nada's drop attempt in Kas' base ended in utter disaster. Little advantages like these added up and lead to a big swing in Kas' favor when it came time to really push out. Kas was overwhelmingly more careful when it came to conserving his army and sniping nada's units whenever the opportunity presented itself. | ||
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Nimic
Norway1360 Posts
Kas won fair and square. And for the people who "Kas who?".... I have no words. | ||
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Airship
United States465 Posts
By gay did you mean bad | ||
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Frankon
3054 Posts
Look at the players which were invited to the qualifiers or directly into a tournament. They all played in LAN events in EU or NA and showed good results. Now look at Kas. He didnt take part in any of those tournaments. Lets keep in mind that Empire team is a poor sc2 team and by poor i mean that they hardly can afford to send their players to every big lan tournament in EU. It was one of the main reason why Naniwa and Diestar left Empire. Also about Kas in NASL. I would love to see him play there but seeing him playing in Redit invitational and GCPL and having mega lags and drops i think its rather good he isnt in season 1 (although if he were and somehow managed to fight out with the lag and get into offline final he would be definitely one of the favourites to take it) Ok another issue... I know im balancing on a ban-wire... I have to disagree Hot_Bid. People didn't blame lag when Haypro lost to Kas due to: 1) we saw that Kas couldnt even do marine splits against Haypro banelings (we all know the reason) 2) Haypro was never a favorite to win vs Kas (even the liquibets showed 50:50 split which for a non liquid guy means he is highly favored) [quote=Hot_Bid] People would know Kas better if he didn't just boss his way into the TSL in the first qualifier :/[/quote] True. If there was no rule about winners not being allowed to play in rest of TL opens we had a very high chance of securing like 2 direct qualifiers spots and a guaranteed 3rd spot for the points ^^ | ||
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Arnfasta
United States183 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:00 Hot_Bid wrote: what are you talking about, i've never said lag doesn't exist. the lag is worse for koreans to NA than EU to NA (not sure about Ukraine to NA so not sure for Kas). multiple times i've said that the players who have prepared for lag could have done better. that alone assumes there is some lag. my point has always been that lag exists its just not the big deciding factor people have been claiming it as. practice/preparation and who actually plays better that day is more important. i don't know why the IM guys decided not to prepare at all for the matches or why they played like they did. do i think they would've played much better if they practiced more on NA, or cared more about their opponents, or took us up on the offer to play from the oGs house? probably. is it completely within their own control to do those things? yes. it's amazing to me that people don't see the inherent bias in how they perceive who wins and loses. Haypro loses a very close match 1-2 vs Kas with the same lag Nada has and there are 0 complaints. Nada gets absolutely dominated by Kas 0-3, often falling behind by 20 supply without any major engagements and people say "oh it was just lag." that's just ridiculous. If I may Hot Bid, I think one of the things about Nada's play that has really shocked people and is part of the source of this outrage is that some of the mistakes he made were so uncharacteristic of him. Maybe he didn't prepare enough, may be school just got in the way or he underestimated Kas, but I think a lot of people are just confused as to how a professional player could make some of the most basic of macro mistakes. Especially someone like Nada considering all his SC1 experience as well ( considering unit production and avoiding supply blocks hasn't changed). I have a personal opinion but I'm not trying to say I know the answer, only that it feels uncomfortable. | ||
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Dawn11
73 Posts
so just have fun watching next tsl round (maybe not having fun because you rage too much on "lags") - i surely have and i hope your player will win ;-) | ||
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OnlineHero
Denmark647 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:00 Lanker wrote: I really do think that people are getting way ahead of themselves here. Kas beat NaDa in one Bo5 which was played in, arguably, an unfair environment (lag), and suddenly people are calling Kas the best terran in the world. NaDa played HORRIBLY in that game. Whether it was down to lag I have no idea but I really do fail to see how Kas played so amazingly. All that happened was that Kas had more units than NaDa as a result of NaDa playing way below his potential. This match in no way proves that Europeans are the gods of sc2 or that Kas is better than NaDa so all you biased Europeans can shut your mouths until Kas wins a major tournament such as the GSL in fair playing conditions. How can you say that these games didn't show that Kas is better than Nada? Did you watch it lol? | ||
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:54 CanucksJC wrote: Also, if Kas was THAT good, there is no reason why we shouldn't know about it. There is a REASON why some are more famous and some are more underground. If the guy was good, you'd see people praising this guy and we wouldn't call this an 'upset'. But the fact is, people don't really know him, period. You can't get around that IMO and I think people are being a little too defensive of Kas. :s Umm, no, NOT PERIOD. Most people who actually REALLY follow the foreign scene were putting Kas as the favorite to win this. Kas has been doing phenomenal lately, and his best matchup is TvT. The problem is certain players seem to have fanbases that extend beyond their results, overshadowing the players that really deserve the hype. Actually, this reminds me of how MVP was before he won the GSL. Everyone was trying to tell people that MVP is the real deal, and that it was just a matter of time before he posted results, but he wasn't getting any real community hype. That's kind of how it is with Kas. A lot of the more informed posters have been trying to tell people that Kas is the real deal. Haven't you heard people mention Kas as being, perhaps, the best Terran in Europe? Or at least that he has the best TvT in Europe? Anyways, it's impossible to know who would've won in a lagless environment, but I'd still place my money on Kas. Also, 4-0 on my liquibet this weekend, hell yeah  | ||
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Brad
2754 Posts
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
On April 11 2011 06:00 Lanker wrote: I really do think that people are getting way ahead of themselves here. Kas beat NaDa in one Bo5 which was played in, arguably, an unfair environment (lag), and suddenly people are calling Kas the best terran in the world. NaDa played HORRIBLY in that game. Whether it was down to lag I have no idea but I really do fail to see how Kas played so amazingly. All that happened was that Kas had more units than NaDa as a result of NaDa playing way below his potential. This match in no way proves that Europeans are the gods of sc2 or that Kas is better than NaDa so all you biased Europeans can shut your mouths until Kas wins a major tournament such as the GSL in fair playing conditions. And still americans underestimating Kas. I can't f****** believe it. He's not "suddenly" the best terran in the world. He has been been a beast for months now, dominating every tournament he enters in europe. Just cuz you (and apparently half NA) doesn't follow the scene properly doesn't mean he won this BO5 out of nowhere. So you biased American can shut your mouth until you actually follow Kas' tournament play and see his wins. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:54 CanucksJC wrote: Someone mentioned lag doesn't make you forget supply depots, but really if you think about it, lag has everything to do with it.... I'm not saying there WAS significant lag, but if there was, you start playing like shit cuz lag doesn't let you play crisply the way you'd want to. Just saying. I wonder if this was something the organizers foresaw when getting this started... Yah sure Kas beat NaDa 3-0 that's great, but was that really dependent on pure skill alone? We saw what happened in WC when it was played in a LAN setting, even though that wasn't very representative of the foreigners. Also, if Kas was THAT good, there is no reason why we shouldn't know about it. There is a REASON why some are more famous and some are more underground. If the guy was good, you'd see people praising this guy and we wouldn't call this an 'upset'. But the fact is, people don't really know him, period. You can't get around that IMO and I think people are being a little too defensive of Kas. :s People didn't know much about Naniwa until recently and he's been the most consistent foreign P for a long time. I don't think your point makes sense at all. Look at the TLPD, Kas is a 65% player. Him, Naniwa, HuK, SelecT and IdrA are basically the only foreigners in that territory. People not knowing about him is because he's Ukrainian, plays on a small team and doesn't promote himself. On top of that, people need to stop lumping EU internet together. People assume the entire landmass has internet like N. Europe, and as we just saw with the grandmother who cut off Romania and Armenia's internet, that's just not true. | ||
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