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On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative?
San going Carriers against Sen not enough for you?
Anyway, they took away KA which pretty much killed San's PvT style which was extremely entertaining and very creative as far as Protoss play goes - not a single Colossus made.
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On March 31 2011 21:44 realstarcrafter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative? yea, colossus ruined the game IMO.
lol? what about terrans mmm? colossus were made to kill bio ball so why we shouldnt use them? why T expect that tier1 will beat tier3 lol
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On March 31 2011 21:39 oz04 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:09 Marke wrote:On March 31 2011 21:06 Shameless wrote:Oo  ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/vSOMx.gif) Looks like he screaming "Fitta" to me, but maybe just my swear i could read by the lips. Means "C''nt" in swedish btw. I thought he was saying f*ck sake.
Why would he be speaking english at such a frustrating moment? Pretty sure it's "fitta".
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On March 31 2011 21:48 befek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:44 realstarcrafter wrote:On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative? yea, colossus ruined the game IMO. lol? what about terrans mmm? colossus were made to kill bio ball so why we shouldnt use them? why T expect that tier1 will beat tier3 lol
you are obviously missing the point
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Terran is a 1a race too. The only "nice" thing is that you can drop. Blizzard nerfed tier 3 terran into the ground so that it's not viable in tvp. Remove the marauder, make tanks stronger and give spidermines and this game would be totally different.
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On March 31 2011 21:48 befek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:44 realstarcrafter wrote:On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative? yea, colossus ruined the game IMO. lol? what about terrans mmm? colossus were made to kill bio ball so why we shouldnt use them? why T expect that tier1 will beat tier3 lol
i often make medivacs from my barracks and obviously you need a robo bay for zealots
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On March 31 2011 21:35 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:29 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:14 Dente wrote:On March 31 2011 21:07 lockedCAPS wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 spaZzNx-` wrote:
Terran just isn't winning too much v Protoss as much as before. What happened LOL Really feels like they forgot how good tanks are =P Aside from huk v mvp yesterday its really been a while since i've seen them used in the MU On March 31 2011 21:09 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 Dalavita wrote:On March 31 2011 21:03 SiDX wrote:with all these bigger maps i wished to see some mech from jinro Big maps make mech worse. This is true, but you also can't stay in your base as MM and expect to win like that. Mech is far better in that case, but Bio-Mech is even better. With the recent uprising in Sentry abuse, I'm pressed to say MMM is no longer the ideal build. There is only 1 viable build and that's MMM. Biomech is the worst composition ever. 1) you got the immobility of the tanks 2) you miss the firepower of tanks when you have a critical mass. 3) tanks actually shoot on your marines and marauders Mech is only good on small maps. Do you guys actually understand why the terrans with the most "success" all play MMM? Do you really think the top terrans are too lazy to experiment with something else then MMM? The reason why every topterran is using MMM is because it's actually the only viable thing. Biomech, mech and bansheebuilds are good, they work, but they are worse then MMM. This is most definitely false. MMM is not an ideal late game composition. It really makes your matches harder than they should be, and it relies a lot on high micro, drops, and APM if you don't kill your opponent early. There's a reason why Protoss has been using sentries all game long, and it's because Terran players in general are not abusing their natural defender's advantage to negate forcefields. Tanks and Thors do so well vs Protoss due to their insane firepower. Granted, you need about six tanks for them to be good, but it's no different than TvZ. Only thing you need to take into account is mass immortals, which can be stopped with Banshees or Mass Marines. (Keep in mind if you have so many immortals, there'll practically be no Colossi if you haven't been super-turtling the whole game.) MMM is a great build and there's no taking that away. It'll always be a good unit composition, but for Jinro's style, who to be honest is really passive until mid-late game, I would not recommend it for him. Terran needs to get beyond this mobility obsession. EDIT: Especially if you're not gonna use your mobility in the first place. Yeah, the tank firepower is great and all, but the problem is that a good protoss will never fight a mech-heavy terran army head-on (unless the toss has a ridiculous composition). A good protoss will abuse army mobility & production speed of warp gates. A good example would be insolence vs dde in one of the later TSL qualifiers, where dde was able to amount to 200/200 solid mech army, but insolence really used blink stalkers / colossus well by running around the map, attacking expos/destroying production buildings. This mobility abuse is amplified even more on bigger maps. If you try to do a base race as mech, you'll be at a disadvantage because the protoss army can destroy your production buildings much easier (get to them faster), and warp gates are very good in a base race scenario, late game.
This is true and can't really refute that. Unless you invest in fortifying each expansion, Immobility is really a problem for Mech, However I'm not advocating that all Terrans should suddenly switch to Mech. Bottomline I'm saying MMM is no longer the ideal composition since Protoss have been getting way better with Sentries.
On March 31 2011 21:35 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:29 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:14 Dente wrote:On March 31 2011 21:07 lockedCAPS wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 spaZzNx-` wrote:
Terran just isn't winning too much v Protoss as much as before. What happened LOL Really feels like they forgot how good tanks are =P Aside from huk v mvp yesterday its really been a while since i've seen them used in the MU On March 31 2011 21:09 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 Dalavita wrote:On March 31 2011 21:03 SiDX wrote:with all these bigger maps i wished to see some mech from jinro Big maps make mech worse. This is true, but you also can't stay in your base as MM and expect to win like that. Mech is far better in that case, but Bio-Mech is even better. With the recent uprising in Sentry abuse, I'm pressed to say MMM is no longer the ideal build. There is only 1 viable build and that's MMM. Biomech is the worst composition ever. 1) you got the immobility of the tanks 2) you miss the firepower of tanks when you have a critical mass. 3) tanks actually shoot on your marines and marauders Mech is only good on small maps. Do you guys actually understand why the terrans with the most "success" all play MMM? Do you really think the top terrans are too lazy to experiment with something else then MMM? The reason why every topterran is using MMM is because it's actually the only viable thing. Biomech, mech and bansheebuilds are good, they work, but they are worse then MMM. This is most definitely false. MMM is not an ideal late game composition. It really makes your matches harder than they should be, and it relies a lot on high micro, drops, and APM if you don't kill your opponent early. There's a reason why Protoss has been using sentries all game long, and it's because Terran players in general are not abusing their natural defender's advantage to negate forcefields. Tanks and Thors do so well vs Protoss due to their insane firepower. Granted, you need about six tanks for them to be good, but it's no different than TvZ. Only thing you need to take into account is mass immortals, which can be stopped with Banshees or Mass Marines. (Keep in mind if you have so many immortals, there'll practically be no Colossi if you haven't been super-turtling the whole game.) MMM is a great build and there's no taking that away. It'll always be a good unit composition, but for Jinro's style, who to be honest is really passive until mid-late game, I would not recommend it for him. Terran needs to get beyond this mobility obsession. EDIT: Especially if you're not gonna use your mobility in the first place. Can you explain me why a TOPTERRAN with SUCCESS is not using tanks / thors. Can you explain me why I feel so bad for goody when I see him losing to an unknown toss? If MMM is not the only viable thing then I want to know why we see 95% MMM (5% for banshee raven tank allin) in games between topplayers? For the record: I used mech for a very long time and I beated alot of good masterplayers with it. I LOVE mech, but people should stop telling that it's viable in tvp.
Because there hasn't been a metagame shift for a long while until Blizzard took out KA.
The ideal counter to MMM has always been HT. Now it isn't. Since Protoss are no longer investing in HT, they have much more opportunity to invest into heavy forcefields.
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On March 31 2011 21:46 Smorrie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:27 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
Yeah sounds good to me dude, just educating dudes who don't realise it has 2 meanings, he's all fixed up now so it's good. Because Urban Dictionary is such a reliable source, right? Even though QFT is 'internet slang' rather than an official recognized word, it's commonly known to be "Quoted For Truth". And if you really want to refer to UB, 'quit fucking trolling' only has 2 entries which are only found on page 3, and both entries have 75% votes rating it down. Next to that the first "Quoted For Truth" entry was made 3 years before the trolling ones. So erm.. RIP? :\ Nobody cares if you keep using QFT as quit fucking trolling in your own environment, but obviously it's not being used over here and just adds confusing... Like someone else pointed out, some people use lol as an acronym to 'lots of love', and obviously that would have no place here either... So just let it go.
No harm intended, was simply pointing out that it didn't make sense to me and explained why - then everyone freaked out! Indeed time for it to die.
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Lol just watched the vods and noticed it said "JAPAN in tsunami" instead of "tsunami in Japan"
win
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On March 31 2011 21:50 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:48 befek wrote:On March 31 2011 21:44 realstarcrafter wrote:On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative? yea, colossus ruined the game IMO. lol? what about terrans mmm? colossus were made to kill bio ball so why we shouldnt use them? why T expect that tier1 will beat tier3 lol you are obviously missing the point
You know for me really winning is most fun part of playing, if I want to use some fancy units I play team games. Pro players are using what is the best to win ofc. Cant blame them.
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On March 31 2011 21:39 rO_Or wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:29 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:14 Dente wrote:On March 31 2011 21:07 lockedCAPS wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 spaZzNx-` wrote:
Terran just isn't winning too much v Protoss as much as before. What happened LOL Really feels like they forgot how good tanks are =P Aside from huk v mvp yesterday its really been a while since i've seen them used in the MU On March 31 2011 21:09 HeroMystic wrote:On March 31 2011 21:04 Dalavita wrote:On March 31 2011 21:03 SiDX wrote:with all these bigger maps i wished to see some mech from jinro Big maps make mech worse. This is true, but you also can't stay in your base as MM and expect to win like that. Mech is far better in that case, but Bio-Mech is even better. With the recent uprising in Sentry abuse, I'm pressed to say MMM is no longer the ideal build. There is only 1 viable build and that's MMM. Biomech is the worst composition ever. 1) you got the immobility of the tanks 2) you miss the firepower of tanks when you have a critical mass. 3) tanks actually shoot on your marines and marauders Mech is only good on small maps. Do you guys actually understand why the terrans with the most "success" all play MMM? Do you really think the top terrans are too lazy to experiment with something else then MMM? The reason why every topterran is using MMM is because it's actually the only viable thing. Biomech, mech and bansheebuilds are good, they work, but they are worse then MMM. This is most definitely false. MMM is not an ideal late game composition. It really makes your matches harder than they should be, and it relies a lot on high micro, drops, and APM if you don't kill your opponent early. There's a reason why Protoss has been using sentries all game long, and it's because Terran players in general are not abusing their natural defender's advantage to negate forcefields. Tanks and Thors do so well vs Protoss due to their insane firepower. Granted, you need about six tanks for them to be good, but it's no different than TvZ. Only thing you need to take into account is mass immortals, which can be stopped with Banshees or Mass Marines. (Keep in mind if you have so many immortals, there'll practically be no Colossi if you haven't been super-turtling the whole game.) MMM is a great build and there's no taking that away. It'll always be a good unit composition, but for Jinro's style, who to be honest is really passive until mid-late game, I would not recommend it for him. Terran needs to get beyond this mobility obsession. EDIT: Especially if you're not gonna use your mobility in the first place. GL using marine/tank/banshee late game against toss.... People be real, marine/tank/banshee is not going to be the future of TvP. Marines simply cannot make up a great deal of your army late game against toss because of storm/collosus, banshees are laughable against feedback and pheonix play and good luck turtling with tanks across 5+ bases while fielding enough of an army to protect them...
I'm more of a Thor/Banshee type of person.
But anyway, every build has it's counters. It's easy to focus on the negatives. MMM's happen to have a lot of those counters too, we just have anti-counters for it (Vikings vs Colossus, Ghosts vs Sentries/HT)
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On March 31 2011 21:44 realstarcrafter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative? yea, colossus ruined the game IMO.
Colossus just feel like extremely mobile Sieged Tanks to me.
The future of TvP probably involves Siege Tanks, but it's just so daunting to move your army across the map when the enemy's version of your super ranged splash damage dealers is 5x more mobile than yours. Not to mention Protoss gateway units are actually tanky as hell, while Terran barracks units are high DPS and low health (not as great in supporting tanks if you intend them to be the DPS of your army).
It's not like you can just remove Colossus either - MMM would become ridiculously impossible to beat for Protoss.
TvP in SC2 feels like PvT in SCBW...give Terran stasis  .
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On March 31 2011 21:51 HeroMystic wrote:
Because there hasn't been a metagame shift for a long while until Blizzard took out KA.
The ideal counter to MMM has always been HT. Now it isn't. Since Protoss are no longer investing in HT, they have much more opportunity to invest into heavy forcefields.
Now the ideal counter to MMM is the collossus. Is biomech or mech good vs collossus? No. Is there anything else viable then MMM? No. Would it be awesome to see mech in action again? Imo yes.
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On March 31 2011 21:50 Dente wrote:
Terran is a 1a race too. The only "nice" thing is that you can drop. Blizzard nerfed tier 3 terran into the ground so that it's not viable in tvp. Remove the marauder, make tanks stronger and give spidermines and this game would be totally different.
Lol'd. Marauders and Marines are goddamn awful if you 1A. Stop spreading bullshit.
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On March 31 2011 21:42 ABOOMAN wrote:
I am really not sure how anyone can enjoy playing protoss, its just a terrible deathball attack move race. Back in BW Protoss games usually had multi prong attacks, storm drops, reaver drops, alot of micro tricks (zealot bombing), etc. And now we have a Colossus ball attack moving while spamming 0 cooldown forcefields, good job blizzard.
I seriously cant say any Protoss player impresses me so far, is there really no way to play the race more creative?
Isn't that like Zerg in bw? Or even Zerg in SC2 as well... It's just tougher to execute as Zerg since units are a lot squishier, but often games get finished by a mass of brood lords / roach / hydra. Either you die in the process of reaching that critical point, or you survive up to there and roll over the Protoss.
I still think it's SC2's weak point... Units are too mobile and the hard counters are 'too hard'. It has a very WC3'ish feel to it, where big armies move around the map trying to find weak holes to poke at, then retreat, while BW had a more territorial type of gameplay, trying to secure bases or certain strategical parts on the map with a lurk/lord/scourge/ling/defiler combo or siege tanks/mines/turrets, etc.
PvZ is the best showcase for this; how many games don't end with 2 big balls clashing and the winning army continuing to wipe up all of the opponents bases.
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On March 31 2011 21:34 Synystyr wrote:
Marine/Raven/Banshee -> Viking/BC is going to be how TvP will end up. I promise.
That's so true.
Banshee Raven is a super opener, add Viking if needed.
And BC as game ender.
In the beginning you only have to be active with the banshee/raven to contain P in his base.
Extra minerals go into Marines or hellion.
I lost to this Stuff a few times.
And yet have to find a way other than big Makro lead to deal with it.
(obviously far from pro level but my opponents are as well^^)
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Well if you think about it assuming the terran and protoss expand at the same time, the protoss will always have more workers due to chronoboost. Terran can't pressure protoss AT ALL with infantry early game anymore. With the nerfed stim timing and bigger maps terran can't be aggressive. Terran basically needs to bunker up against protoss, infantry SUCKS before stim. Maybe I'm just a noob but even with the pre-nerf stim timing I pretty much could never kill a protoss with early aggression. Now that it's nerfed what exactly can terran do early game... turtle? Ok yeah that's about it.
I donno I am just frustrated with terran lately. It is so annoying to try to win a macro game against protoss. I have to build 2 bunkers against 4 warp gates or I can die instantly (this slows down the entire build order). I have to build an engineering bay and 2 turrets for dark templar. I need to get stimpack/concussive shell/combat shield or my infantry are horrible. I need to get a ton of vikings/medivacs and its often very difficult to tell which to get as many good protoss will hide their tech and collusus away from their gateway army. It just seems like you have to cover so many bases to be safe against protoss and what ends up happening is they get ahead in army size and can attack move pwn you like what happened to Jinro in game 2.
I mean maybe you have to cut corners to beat that collusus timing. Doesn't seem like I can afford bunkers or turrets and keep up in supply that's for sure. I just hate losing to 4 gate and dark templar....
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On March 31 2011 21:55 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 21:50 Dente wrote:
Terran is a 1a race too. The only "nice" thing is that you can drop. Blizzard nerfed tier 3 terran into the ground so that it's not viable in tvp. Remove the marauder, make tanks stronger and give spidermines and this game would be totally different. Lol'd. Marauders and Marines are goddamn awful if you 1A. Stop spreading bullshit.
Stim drop marauders absoloutely fucking destroy buildings in a snap. It should be classed as a seige unit it's so ridiculous.
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On March 31 2011 21:58 Tokadub wrote:
Well if you think about it assuming the terran and protoss expand at the same time, the protoss will always have more workers due to chronoboost. Terran can't pressure protoss AT ALL with infantry early game anymore. With the nerfed stim timing and bigger maps terran can't be aggressive. Terran basically needs to bunker up against protoss, infantry SUCKS before stim. Maybe I'm just a noob but even with the pre-nerf stim timing I pretty much could never kill a protoss with early aggression. Now that it's nerfed what exactly can terran do early game... turtle? Ok yeah that's about it.
I donno I am just frustrated with terran lately. It is so annoying to try to win a macro game against protoss. I have to build 2 bunkers against 4 warp gates or I can die instantly (this slows down the entire build order). I have to build an engineering bay and 2 turrets for dark templar. I need to get stimpack/concussive shell/combat shield or my infantry are horrible. I need to get a ton of vikings/medivacs and its often very difficult to tell which to get as many good protoss will hide their tech and collusus away from their gateway army. It just seems like you have to cover so many bases to be safe against protoss and what ends up happening is they get ahead in army size and can attack move pwn you like what happened to Jinro in game 2.
I mean maybe you have to cut corners to beat that collusus timing. Doesn't seem like I can afford bunkers or turrets and keep up in supply that's for sure. I just hate losing to 4 gate and dark templar....
there are these things called "scans" that terrans can use
maybe try using them at appropriate times instead of trying to cover every strategy/all-in
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lol? what about terrans mmm? colossus were made to kill bio ball so why we shouldnt use them? why T expect that tier1 will beat tier3 lol
Well, the reason Terrans use Bio every game isn't because they have some love affair with it. many Terrans firmly believe Mech simply does not work and they have no choice. So in that context, they think Colossus is Over Powered. And they may be right.
I can think of no Terran or Zerg unit as efficient as the Colossus. It has range 9, does splash damage, and can walk up and down cliffs. But, air units can hit it. Seems like an awfully good trade off to me.
If i could reduce my Siege tanks to range 9, move while firing, and walk cliffs, but air units could hit me, I and any Terran would take that in a nanosecond. Because it would be crazy strong - thus the Colossus.
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EPT
