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On March 27 2011 08:24 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:19 Chewie wrote:On March 27 2011 08:11 IntoTheWow wrote:On March 27 2011 08:09 dsousa wrote:On March 27 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On March 27 2011 07:58 iExtrapolate wrote:
There were many moments in the game in which Naniwa repositioned his units to prepare for an attack at a non obvious position immediately before an attack occurred. Some people in this thread claim that this was purely intuition, but because the time at which the drop occurred and the time at which the stalkers were moved to position in which they could defend the drop was so close, if there were no map hacks, there was obviously a lot of luck involved. So the two explanations for the random preparedness of Naniwa are either that he has a great intuition and got lucky at several different times in the series or that he map hacked.
Considering that this is a tournament with a 5 figure prize pool and there is no way for the commentators to detect a map hacker, it is not without reason to assume that, in this tournament, they could exist. I think, for the sake of the legitimacy of this tournament, the replays from this series should be watched from Naniwa's vision to determine whether or not he map hacked. While I agree that it may be a little rash to outright accuse Naniwa of map hacking, it would be naive to just assume, that in all of those circumstances it was his intuition that prepared him for those non obvious attacks.
Are you serious? I asked a similar question a few days ago... and you asked this same question? "Are you serious?" Yes, people are serious about this. Why are you so sure this doesn't happen? Or are you just trying to shame skeptics from asking questions? You should follow up with...... "The reason I/we are sure that map hacking does not occur is because......." please fill in the blank..seriously! Way to interpret the post incorrectly. Read that ridiculous posts again and tell me it's a serious hacking accusation. It's a mild, ridiculous hacking accusation by someone who either didn't watch the games or knows little about how the game works. This might be true, but is it grounds for out right banning? He clearly stated an opinion that Naniwa was very lucky or maphacking. Whats the big deal? The mods here have become pretty goddamn fierce. + Show Spoiler +btw im not saying Naniwa was maphacking Why should we tolerate people randomly accusing pros of map-hacking? Naniwa's first game reactions have clear explanations in scouting, second he lost and third he didn't react correctly at the start of the game to what Ret was doing. If the poster had doubts about how and why Naniwa reacted in the games, he could have easily stated/asked about this without ever mentioning map-hacking.
I think these forums should definitely tolerate straight forward argumentation no matter what the content.
Please note he doesnt actually accuse Naniwa of cheating. Its not a troll. Its not flaming.
Naniwa I dont think you were cheating. Gj on the win. 
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On March 27 2011 08:29 Seam wrote:
I wasn't able to watch the games, could anyone tell me how what happened happened?
MVP getting 2-0'd by Adelscott???
QXC 2-0ing genius!?
GoOdy winning 2-1 vs Nestea?!
MVP makes questionable decisions and Adelscott showcases his unique manly PvT
QXC plays amazingly to top genius. Genius: "qxc is so good".
Goody plays mech in every game, wins one game with a rush and then the last game with early aggression as well.
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On March 27 2011 08:30 Zephirdd wrote:No.
Damn all these people talking about the lag and the slow reactions makes it seem like they were really able to study the games. From the csat I watched everything looked pretty even and I didnt see any obvious lag-based blunders
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On March 27 2011 08:28 HuskyTheHusky wrote:Great games today . Thanks for having me along to cast again! I just want to mention that I was extremely sick yesterday and was just recovering today. Definitely not my best cast by far but Chill was on it as always. Great work!
your casting was much better than last week imo. (u kinda were like a machine gun and wheat like a water pistol haha)
i didnt hear u casting for quite a while and i must say u rly improved a ton since i was listening to ur casts in the beta.
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On March 27 2011 08:20 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 07:51 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:47 Dawn11 wrote:On March 27 2011 07:31 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:29 Tef wrote:On March 27 2011 07:24 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:23 Kazzabiss wrote:On March 27 2011 07:21 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:20 Shika wrote:On March 27 2011 07:18 Owii wrote:
4 upsets? Last game was hardly an upset. I went 3/4 on my liquidbet tonight. Only missed on qxc's game, he has obviously improved by playing in europe. You are somehow proud you called goody vs nestea, fluke of the century. Go watch some of Goody's matches on gosugamers, and then come back and seriously tell me he is at half the level nestea is. What? How is he proud for one, and two, whaaaaaat? I also "called" GoOdy over NesTea because I'm smart No that is called luck, Goody would lose first round in Code A 9 out of 10 times. You seriously underestimate him. As most of his opponents do if they have never played him before. I've watched many of his games on gosugamers, I thought he was a low tier amateur then, and I still think he is now. You say under estimated, I say many people watch his games and realize hes bad. I agree with that majority. so funny how people can call nestea the best zerg in the world, while he is losing to a " bad player" that just make you look hilarious. of course you see matches from goody getting beaten pretty hard, but only from players who played him like a billion times before - and if the koreans are so confident in their uber-skill to beat non-koreans with no preparation its just their fault and they just deserve to get owned ;-) btw: i although think that people getting blinded by what they see on the gsl. i mean playing 10hours standard play a day will most likely improve your mechanics but on the other side how often do you think nestea has to play against an only mech terran? just my thoughts ;-) Who is calling nestea the best zerg in the world? I don't remember saying that in my post, Goody barely won a best of 3 series against a zerg player facing serious lag as shown by the other Korean matches, I'm assuming he must have as well. And he won because nestea made some huge blunders, not some awesome great play. He meched out and sent some auto repairing scvs with his army, got lucky nestea had zero lings in the third game at a xel naga and lost 15 drones for nothing. Causing him to barely win the game. I'm no pro, just (hopefully) a bit good at spectating but my 2 cents about that (and some other posts) are : -nestea's style is much more dependant on lag than goody is so yeah, lag is an issue -watch iem, 2-3 class A koreans get in the tourney and "own (the creme de la creme) white dudes" then compare to tonight : lag can be an issue -I don't think a player like nestea expects to go far in those tourneys anyway, he's just in for the hype (and sponsor money that comes with it) ; if he has to fight someone like idra and the battle goes to a zerg+baneling fight, a 1 sec lag/latency is probably high enough to make him lose the game everytime since that would rely on crazy intense macro and he'd never be able to get the reaction time he's supposed to to give a fair fight ; he probably knows that but hey, if you're invited, why not give it a shot. -goody is probably destabilising if you don't know his style, i guess top class koreans have forgotten how to deal with so much turtling because that style is so slow and efficient no one is playing like that anymore over there - they probably found a way to deal with it years ago and since then no one has dared playing like that anymore ---->they forgot how to deal with it. And maybe there is no answer to that style except turtling up in a similar way but in that case, we're on our way to some boring starcraft in the future (or just patch the game so everyone starts at 200/200 with siege tanks, we'll save some spectating time) -I like goody's style now and then, I think he's got a great vision of the game but I don't wanna see it take over everything, i wanna see matches faster and more flexible than what he has to offer, otherwise I'll go play Risk or Monopoly.
But they also beat code S players so what you are saying is irrelevant. Idra was very consistent in GSL and lost mainly to Jinro in the later stages of the tournament (kicking out some of the best) so why does he get beat by those 2-3 tier koreans? Because they are a lot better than most code S players as we have seen in the team matches. They just rarely deliver that in tournaments.
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On March 27 2011 08:32 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 27 2011 08:26 Jayrod wrote:
Do they release these replays?
No. Damn all these people talking about the lag and the slow reactions makes it seem like they were really able to study the games. From the csat I watched everything looked pretty even and I didnt see any obvious lag-based blunders
NesTea's roaches, MVP's marine pressure, Genius' storms were all really off. Not that any of those were game-deciding though, I think we generally saw that the foreigners had better game sense today.
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What... the... HELL!?
What is happening!?
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On March 27 2011 08:27 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 07:59 Chill wrote:On March 27 2011 07:58 iExtrapolate wrote:
There were many moments in the game in which Naniwa repositioned his units to prepare for an attack at a non obvious position immediately before an attack occurred. Some people in this thread claim that this was purely intuition, but because the time at which the drop occurred and the time at which the stalkers were moved to position in which they could defend the drop was so close, if there were no map hacks, there was obviously a lot of luck involved. So the two explanations for the random preparedness of Naniwa are either that he has a great intuition and got lucky at several different times in the series or that he map hacked.
Considering that this is a tournament with a 5 figure prize pool and there is no way for the commentators to detect a map hacker, it is not without reason to assume that, in this tournament, they could exist. I think, for the sake of the legitimacy of this tournament, the replays from this series should be watched from Naniwa's vision to determine whether or not he map hacked. While I agree that it may be a little rash to outright accuse Naniwa of map hacking, it would be naive to just assume, that in all of those circumstances it was his intuition that prepared him for those non obvious attacks.
Are you serious? Not intending to bash on you at all, as you did an awesome job casting today, but you did kind of make a big deal about Naniwa's unit placement, defence timing, etc that could have lead a lot of people to get the wrong idea. I know a few of my less experienced friends jumped to the conclusion that Naniwa was watching the stream or cheating. Which is obviously impossible and highly improbable, but they didn't know that and just jumped to that conclusion based on your reactions and cheating comments (jokes that some people didn't get). With so many viewers, and many noobs among them that sort of thing is going to happen if you aren't careful. Something to think about maybe.
There are noobs are SC and there are noobs at life.
I'm the former andI have 0 evidence that anyone cheated.... there is a good chance that no-one did. But, if you think 1000's of dollars aren't enough of a lure for someone to cheat over a game of SC.. then you are the latter.
It doesn't take a long review of the daily world news, to see that people stoop far farther than cheating at SC everyday! If people were found to be map hacking.... do you think the non-sc2 community would be shocked? No... it wouldn't even been news.... people cheating at an online game... wow...stop the presses.
Is it hard to get map hacks? No
Can they give you a huge advantage in winning $15,000? Yes
These facts make this a huge issue....that is going to have to be addressed sooner or later.
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On March 27 2011 08:17 Iamyournoob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:09 danielsan wrote:On March 27 2011 07:53 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:50 Durp wrote:On March 27 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Goodys TvZ gives me a lot of hope for SC2 - I hope he can show as nice timings TvP as well. It seems that when the right timing is hit, mech can actually have an SC1 like quality (game 3), where a small army can actually do something...
Surprised by the results but if we get more goody TvZ from it, Im not too disappointed. I have had to revise my opinion of goody lately (started with his games vs Dimaga a couple of weeks back in the finals of some tournament). He has been playing very well and been a top euro since release, i don't know how people can underrate him so much. Unfortunately, Goody's mechanics are truly sub-par, barely diamond league level if you ask me (he spent most of game 3 supply blocked at 110 with units queue'd), but he has truly top terran decision making. As many of the pros have said, StarCraft 2 is a much less mechanically based game, and allows for strategy to beat out mechanics. Goody is solid proof of that statement, as he has shown through his results (like it or not, qualifying alone for the TSL counts as some results- plus check his other tournaments) that his decision making beats out the better mechanics of other players. + Show Spoiler + and conversely, NesTea threw the series away with BAD decision making I'd love to see the accepted best players in the world adapt to try his style. HINT JINRO <33333333 Goodys strength lies within his pushing skills with his tanks, weakness is definatly his mutlitasking. His precision and thought throughness of his positioning make up for it, mostly, which i think is awesome. Goody's precision and thought thoroughness equals my SC BW precision and thought thoroughness when playing BGH and pushing with 200 battlecruisers. Disregarding his macro and multitasking, his gameplan is non-existent, his decision making is god-awful and generally speaking his overall gameplay is coarse to say the least. I'm ashamed people on TL actually give him credit for winning. I somehow didn't like Goody either, because of him getting supply blocked a lot and queuing units to no end. Yet he seems to win a lot of games. I doubt it is all based on luck. And if Goody is such a bad player and so easy to beat, then his opponents are just worse than him. Yeah, there is a lot to dislike and critisize about him - but you got to admit that he knows how to win games.
Dumb/unexpected strategies win you games. Sadly that's how ladder rolls and that's how 3rd world tourneys roll. A good player, once he had lost once to that one particular style, will certainly never lose to it again.
That's why a GSL player, once it figured Goody's style, will crush him in unimaginable ways while Goody, once he studied a GSL player, will be left with same ridiculous style or with 1 base all-ins.
I'm not saying full mech doesnt work against Z, but check MKP vs ?! zerg on Terminus RE and see the difference between solid mech push and BGHesque "I'm gonna pack my things and go" Goody random push.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Very impressed with Adelscott today, he felt a bit one-dimensional in the qualifiers (immortal/sentry push) but have steadily created a style of his own.
Not so impressed with Genius' lack of will to expand (cost him the game IMO).
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On March 27 2011 08:32 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:29 Seam wrote:
I wasn't able to watch the games, could anyone tell me how what happened happened?
MVP getting 2-0'd by Adelscott???
QXC 2-0ing genius!?
GoOdy winning 2-1 vs Nestea?! MVP makes questionable decisions and Adelscott showcases his unique manly PvT QXC plays amazingly to top genius. Genius: "qxc is so good". Goody plays mech in every game, wins one game with a rush and then the last game with early aggression as well.
Interesting. I'm defiantly going to watch the VoDs.
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On March 27 2011 08:35 RezChi wrote:
What... the... HELL!?
What is happening!?
if you just saw the results , let me say this :
Adelscott over "upgraded" Mvp (getting fast 3 armor + charge + blink) and had superior macro
QXC played "genius" vs Genius , i just want to say that genius twitted : "qxc is so good" (which should tell enough)
Goody won because well executed pushes (+ bad decision by NesTea, rly bad)
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On March 27 2011 08:35 danielsan wrote:
I'm not saying full mech doesnt work against Z, but check MKP vs ?! zerg on Terminus RE and see the difference between solid mech push and BGHesque Goody random push.
You should definitly check out what Jinro wrote on this thread about GoOdys push timings.
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On March 27 2011 08:35 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:17 Iamyournoob wrote:On March 27 2011 08:09 danielsan wrote:On March 27 2011 07:53 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:50 Durp wrote:On March 27 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Goodys TvZ gives me a lot of hope for SC2 - I hope he can show as nice timings TvP as well. It seems that when the right timing is hit, mech can actually have an SC1 like quality (game 3), where a small army can actually do something...
Surprised by the results but if we get more goody TvZ from it, Im not too disappointed. I have had to revise my opinion of goody lately (started with his games vs Dimaga a couple of weeks back in the finals of some tournament). He has been playing very well and been a top euro since release, i don't know how people can underrate him so much. Unfortunately, Goody's mechanics are truly sub-par, barely diamond league level if you ask me (he spent most of game 3 supply blocked at 110 with units queue'd), but he has truly top terran decision making. As many of the pros have said, StarCraft 2 is a much less mechanically based game, and allows for strategy to beat out mechanics. Goody is solid proof of that statement, as he has shown through his results (like it or not, qualifying alone for the TSL counts as some results- plus check his other tournaments) that his decision making beats out the better mechanics of other players. + Show Spoiler + and conversely, NesTea threw the series away with BAD decision making I'd love to see the accepted best players in the world adapt to try his style. HINT JINRO <33333333 Goodys strength lies within his pushing skills with his tanks, weakness is definatly his mutlitasking. His precision and thought throughness of his positioning make up for it, mostly, which i think is awesome. Goody's precision and thought thoroughness equals my SC BW precision and thought thoroughness when playing BGH and pushing with 200 battlecruisers. Disregarding his macro and multitasking, his gameplan is non-existent, his decision making is god-awful and generally speaking his overall gameplay is coarse to say the least. I'm ashamed people on TL actually give him credit for winning. I somehow didn't like Goody either, because of him getting supply blocked a lot and queuing units to no end. Yet he seems to win a lot of games. I doubt it is all based on luck. And if Goody is such a bad player and so easy to beat, then his opponents are just worse than him. Yeah, there is a lot to dislike and critisize about him - but you got to admit that he knows how to win games. Dumb/unexpected strategies win you games. Sadly that's how ladder rolls and that's how 3rd world tourneys roll. A good player, once he had lost once to that one particular style, will certainly never lose to it again. That's why a GSL player, once it figured Goody's style, will crush him in unimaginable ways while Goody, once he studied a GSL player, will be left with same ridiculous style or with 1 base all-ins. I'm not saying full mech doesnt work against Z, but check MKP vs ?! zerg on Terminus RE and see the difference between solid mech push and BGHesque "I'm gonna pack my things and go" Goody random push.
why was idra still successful / he harasses and plays mostly on 2 bases / its not random pushes, they are called timing pushes + don't hate
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On March 27 2011 08:23 jaydee81 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 07:41 RoseTempest wrote:On March 27 2011 07:36 vdale wrote:On March 27 2011 07:31 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:29 Tef wrote:On March 27 2011 07:24 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:23 Kazzabiss wrote:On March 27 2011 07:21 Kvothe wrote:On March 27 2011 07:20 Shika wrote:On March 27 2011 07:18 Owii wrote:
4 upsets? Last game was hardly an upset. I went 3/4 on my liquidbet tonight. Only missed on qxc's game, he has obviously improved by playing in europe. You are somehow proud you called goody vs nestea, fluke of the century. Go watch some of Goody's matches on gosugamers, and then come back and seriously tell me he is at half the level nestea is. What? How is he proud for one, and two, whaaaaaat? I also "called" GoOdy over NesTea because I'm smart No that is called luck, Goody would lose first round in Code A 9 out of 10 times. You seriously underestimate him. As most of his opponents do if they have never played him before. I've watched many of his games on gosugamers, I thought he was a low tier amateur then, and I still think he is now. You say under estimated, I say many people watch his games and realize hes bad. I agree with that majority. You are wrong. Goody has many flaws in his game, but he still defeats players who macro perfectly. No one cares if you think that someone is bad, if the one is winning tournaments left and right and defeating all top players (especially in TvT). I would bet on Goody in every TvT in the GSL, because you can't drop him and you can't play with mass marines against him and that's what all Koreans are doing right now. He also showed that he can take down the best Zerg players. Goody. Beating "all top players". in GSL. Look at this statistically, he has accomplished next to nothing before this tournament. He has yet to prove that he's not just some outlying statistic. Quick to jump on the bandwagon much. Another genious who only follows GSL and thinks he actually has a clue.
He probably watched IEM as well, and watched as the Koreans completely smashed what the rest of the world had to offer. Goody has won what is it, 3-4 small tournaments lately, and suddenly hes the best player in the world.
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On March 27 2011 08:35 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:17 Iamyournoob wrote:On March 27 2011 08:09 danielsan wrote:On March 27 2011 07:53 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:50 Durp wrote:On March 27 2011 07:47 zeru wrote:On March 27 2011 07:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Goodys TvZ gives me a lot of hope for SC2 - I hope he can show as nice timings TvP as well. It seems that when the right timing is hit, mech can actually have an SC1 like quality (game 3), where a small army can actually do something...
Surprised by the results but if we get more goody TvZ from it, Im not too disappointed. I have had to revise my opinion of goody lately (started with his games vs Dimaga a couple of weeks back in the finals of some tournament). He has been playing very well and been a top euro since release, i don't know how people can underrate him so much. Unfortunately, Goody's mechanics are truly sub-par, barely diamond league level if you ask me (he spent most of game 3 supply blocked at 110 with units queue'd), but he has truly top terran decision making. As many of the pros have said, StarCraft 2 is a much less mechanically based game, and allows for strategy to beat out mechanics. Goody is solid proof of that statement, as he has shown through his results (like it or not, qualifying alone for the TSL counts as some results- plus check his other tournaments) that his decision making beats out the better mechanics of other players. + Show Spoiler + and conversely, NesTea threw the series away with BAD decision making I'd love to see the accepted best players in the world adapt to try his style. HINT JINRO <33333333 Goodys strength lies within his pushing skills with his tanks, weakness is definatly his mutlitasking. His precision and thought throughness of his positioning make up for it, mostly, which i think is awesome. Goody's precision and thought thoroughness equals my SC BW precision and thought thoroughness when playing BGH and pushing with 200 battlecruisers. Disregarding his macro and multitasking, his gameplan is non-existent, his decision making is god-awful and generally speaking his overall gameplay is coarse to say the least. I'm ashamed people on TL actually give him credit for winning. I somehow didn't like Goody either, because of him getting supply blocked a lot and queuing units to no end. Yet he seems to win a lot of games. I doubt it is all based on luck. And if Goody is such a bad player and so easy to beat, then his opponents are just worse than him. Yeah, there is a lot to dislike and critisize about him - but you got to admit that he knows how to win games. Dumb/unexpected strategies win you games. Sadly that's how ladder rolls and that's how 3rd world tourneys roll. A good player, once he had lost once to that one particular style, will certainly never lose to it again. That's why a GSL player, once it figured Goody's style, will crush him in unimaginable ways while Goody, once he studied a GSL player, will be left with same ridiculous style or with 1 base all-ins. I'm not saying full mech doesnt work against Z, but check MKP vs ?! zerg on Terminus RE and see the difference between solid mech push and BGHesque "I'm gonna pack my things and go" Goody random push.
sorry to say that: but you sir have no idea what you are talking about...
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On March 27 2011 08:32 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:29 Seam wrote:
I wasn't able to watch the games, could anyone tell me how what happened happened?
MVP getting 2-0'd by Adelscott???
QXC 2-0ing genius!?
GoOdy winning 2-1 vs Nestea?! MVP makes questionable decisions and Adelscott showcases his unique manly PvT QXC plays amazingly to top genius. Genius: "qxc is so good". Goody plays mech in every game, wins one game with a rush and then the last game with early aggression as well.
MVP I think really got hurt by lag, I mean getting a reaper surrounded by probes... can't really explain that. But as Jinro pointed out, if you know the lag you would not want to get a reaper, so it's in a way also his own fault.
I agree on the second, QXC was really good.
For Nestea I can't really tell... you can always lose to heavy aggression on Xelnaga. The third game was weird, I thought he would have been able to crush Goody's attack which might have been better than that counter attack.
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Maybe it was already the case but after this ro32 i think that the remaining koreans will definitely prepare their matches as best as they can.
The matches tonight were just so good, gonna be even better
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United States15275 Posts
On March 27 2011 08:37 Rollo wrote:
Very impressed with Adelscott today, he felt a bit one-dimensional in the qualifiers (immortal/sentry push) but have steadily created a style of his own.
Not so impressed with Genius' lack of will to expand (cost him the game IMO).
You mean ZeeRax's games?
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When will the vods be up? I'd like to watch them tonight...
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EPT
