EPTTeamSpeak TL SC2 Open #14 / Qualifier #7 for TSL3 - Page 95
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:23 Talin wrote: I've actually come to prefer both PvP (with even builds) and ZvZ dynamic short games to this kind of thing. Quite honestly, macro games in SC2 are painfully boring to watch in general and don't compare in the slightest to BW macro games. In SC2, macro games just lack tempo and intensity to make them fun to watch. Players don't get the chance to show their actual skill throughout the game. In Brood War, in a 30+ minute game players are being pushed to the limits of their human ability, and that's why macro games were so awe-inspiring. In SC2, they're just casually expanding and trying to be smart with unit compositions. Seriously, if a match-up revolves around something called "deathball", there's no way in hell that can be a fun match-up. I do agree with the person you quoted, all in all it was a pretty boring series to watch (except for the Scrap game). TvPs are a lot more like what you describe. TvZs are also similar. PvZs, though, usually comes down to a death ball match simply because it's very easy for Zerg to defend multi-pronged Protoss harass (which usually means phoenixes or dark templars as there aren't anything else that can really harass) whereas defeating Protoss two-base timings is very hard. If Blizzard wants to make PvZ more like BW they need to change the fundamentals of Protoss. The colossus, sentry, and immortal units are the very definition of death ball units that are terrible on their own but oh-so-strong in a group. | ||
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Sindsygafnatur
Denmark265 Posts
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pilsken
Germany441 Posts
And how exactly does Morrow do this? The templar ball was sitting in the middle of the map, on his doorstep the entire time. You can't do speedling runbys through that. And any drop would simply be negated by a warp in Shakuras has backdoors. Warpin doesn't work when you're maxed. When you attack at 3 points at the same time you are guaranteed to deal damage. There was plenty of space for a Nydus attack. Stop talking like Morrow did everything possible. He had superb macro and then neither abused mobility, nor maxed out his army size through overdroning. 40 more supply in units and smarter play could have definitly won him that game. He had the ressources, he had the macro, the bases and went for the straight attack, but that just does not work in that situation and he should have known that (and probably did). | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:23 Talin wrote: I've actually come to prefer both PvP (with even builds) and ZvZ dynamic short games to this kind of thing. Quite honestly, macro games in SC2 are painfully boring to watch in general and don't compare in the slightest to BW macro games. In SC2, macro games just lack tempo and intensity to make them fun to watch. Players don't get the chance to show their actual skill throughout the game. In Brood War, in a 30+ minute game players are being pushed to the limits of their human ability, and that's why macro games were so awe-inspiring. In SC2, they're just casually expanding and trying to be smart with unit compositions. Seriously, if a match-up revolves around something called "deathball", there's no way in hell that can be a fun match-up. I do agree with the person you quoted, all in all it was a pretty boring series to watch (except for the Scrap game, that one was decent). I agree fully. I hate the death ball, roach blob, thor push, shit that just ends up in one turtling player for 15 minutes and another one taking the whole map and crossing fingers he will beat the inevitable. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:26 Dont-Panic wrote: I think as the game progresses players will get better at harassing while macroing from their 3 or 4 bases which will result in more "action packed" games. I still enjoyed the finals very much I have to say! In PvZ, doubt it. Protoss simply has no reason to harass and Zerg is too scared of the two-base timing to harass. PvZ is fundamentally shaped around the death ball because Protoss units are only cost efficient while in a death ball. In smaller groups they get crushed by the much higher mobility of Zerg. | ||
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borny
China481 Posts
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pilsken
Germany441 Posts
In PvZ, doubt it. Protoss simply has no reason to harass and Zerg is too scared of the two-base timing to harass. PvZ is fundamentally shaped around the death ball because Protoss units are only cost efficient while in a death ball. In smaller groups they get crushed by the much higher mobility of Zerg Better Maps and time will fix that. Most of TvP is still pretty MMM+Vikings vs. Chargelot/Stalker/Collosi but we've seen how far players like Squirtle/MVP on a good map can take a "onedimensional" matchup like that. I have no doubt the other matchups have similar potential. (Well, exept maybe PvP...) Broodwar had 10 years of development to reach the point where it is. Maybe give SC 2 a year before we make any absolute statements towards that. The metagame has already changed so much in the past 6 months and with people getting better and better, there are great things to come. | ||
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Tef
Sweden443 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:37 Azarkon wrote: In PvZ, doubt it. Protoss simply has no reason to harass and Zerg is too scared of the two-base timing to harass. PvZ is fundamentally shaped around the death ball because Protoss units are only cost efficient while in a death ball. In smaller groups they get crushed by the much higher mobility of Zerg. I would have to say its the other way around. Protoss has no reason to harass because the death ball is so good. Most Protoss rely on the death ball so much they don't even consider re-maxing or harassing, they just go for the kill and shuts off zerg re-inforcements. Zealot warp-in harass, templar drops would be super good against Zerg, but nodody cares because the death ball does the trick anyways so there is no need to take such high risks. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:46 Tef wrote: I would have to say its the other way around. Protoss has no reason to harass because the death ball is so good. Most Protoss rely on the death ball so much they don't even consider re-maxing or harassing, they just go for the kill and shuts off zerg re-inforcements. Zealot warp-in harass, templar drops would be super good against Zerg, but nodody cares because the death ball does the trick anyways so there is no need to take such high risks. I don't think either would be that effective vs. Zerg, simply due to the amount of vision Zerg has due to creep. Even Terran drops, which are more potent than Protoss drops, are being shut down quite easily by Zerg these days because of the vision and mobility good creep spread and overlord positioning grants you. Terran depends a lot on small groups of units supported by medivacs because they can kill a disproportionate amount of enemy units if not overwhelmed. Zealots don't have that property and HTs are too expensive to throw away for a handful of drones given how fast Zerg can macro back up in SC 2. It's just a different game. Splitting your forces, for a SC 2 Protoss, means they become vastly weaker. The strength of Protoss death balls compared to the strength of individual Protoss units dictates what strategy is used, and Protoss units just aren't great individually. They need to stay together. | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
sad that morrow didnt make it, but impressed he has down so well with Zerg, hopefully he gets in one of the spots for points  | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:46 Tef wrote: I would have to say its the other way around. Protoss has no reason to harass because the death ball is so good. Most Protoss rely on the death ball so much they don't even consider re-maxing or harassing, they just go for the kill and shuts off zerg re-inforcements. Zealot warp-in harass, templar drops would be super good against Zerg, but nodody cares because the death ball does the trick anyways so there is no need to take such high risks. Wasting psi-storm on drones is in most situations a bad idea, as well as warping zealots to harass (usually demolished by a few roaches) not to mention the fact that making warp-prism prevents you from making immortals/colossi... If you're playing like this, you're not playing risky, you're just playing utterly bad. Maybe if warp-prism wasn't such a bad unit and that protoss gateway units were better you would see more harassing type of play... But Protoss players are not stupid and will stick to what works for the moment. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:41 pilsken wrote: Broodwar had 10 years of development to reach the point where it is. Maybe give SC 2 a year before we make any absolute statements towards that. The metagame has already changed so much in the past 6 months and with people getting better and better, there are great things to come. The thing is, pretty much everybody that started playing SC2 at pro level was already a top notch RTS player. Unlike players that started playing BW back in 98/99 who were genuinely new to the whole competitive RTS concept. Even 20 years of metagame development won't change the fact that Brood War was the more mechanically challenging game. Mechanics is ultimately where players display their skill, and the display of skill is what makes the game attractive for the viewers. Now in that last game of the finals, for example, there wasn't a single instance where one could actually be impressed with either player's skill. That game was 100% about strategy and decision making, and as valuable skills as they may be, strategy and decision making don't really make for a good show. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:27 DizzyDrone wrote: I think lategame Zerg really needs to explore the use of banelings - they are faster then high templars and sentries which would allow the zerg to snipe those expensive spellcasters. A combination of roach and broodlord with infestors supporting them to either fungal growth stalkers or neural parasite void rays should do pretty well too. Can't blow the Stalkers, Immortals or Colo up with banelings dude. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 20 2011 11:04 Azarkon wrote: By mechanics, I think you mean micro, because from a viewer's point of view how many SCVs you have idle or whether you're producing out of all your barracks isn't very interesting, either. Yet those were the foundations of mechanics in BW. I don't mean just micro. From an informed viewer's point of view, it made the game interesting and intense because of how difficult and mentally taxing it is to manually order every single of those workers to mine just on time and to keep building out of all your Barracks in 30 minute games on multiple bases without MBS. The very basic mechanics of the game were designed to create a gap between the players if one didn't keep up. And when a player shows godly micro in that kind of game, you could really appreciate it and it would blow your mind away because you know how insanely hard it is. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Still, I think prisms are yet not fully explored. Sure, theres some neat tricks people have done with them, but they haven't mastered a lot of associated timings. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On February 20 2011 11:17 Talin wrote: I don't mean just micro. From an informed viewer's point of view, it made the game interesting and intense because of how difficult and mentally taxing it is to manually order every single of those workers to mine just on time and to keep building out of all your Barracks in 30 minute games on multiple bases without MBS. The very basic mechanics of the game were designed to create a gap between the players if one didn't keep up. And when a player shows godly micro in that kind of game, you could really appreciate it and it would blow your mind away because you know how insanely hard it is. The casual viewer doesn't care about that stuff really... and the key difference between the Korean BW scene and foreign E-Sports scenes are that there's a MUCH larger casual fanbase probably far outnumbering the actual hardcore gamers that still find BW enjoyable to watch. | ||
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
On February 20 2011 11:05 hitman133 wrote: Can't blow the Stalkers, Immortals or Colo up with banelings dude. Whic is why I suggested using them on the zealots, sentries and high templars. Ultralisks are perfectly capable of cleaning up the units you mentioned, especially if baneling splash has already blown up the immortals shields and you have infestors to fungal growth the stalkers. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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