EPT[GSL] S3 Ro4 Day 2 - Page 127
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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FILM
United States663 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
Rain doesn't have a chance XD | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:03 Sapphire.lux wrote: If one base DT is not cheese and 3 gate stargate is not all in then what is? If you almost kill your opponent then yeh, you can transition out of it lol. So anytime you tech ... it's all in? | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. | ||
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dde
Canada796 Posts
On December 11 2010 01:38 Sadist wrote: game 2 was stupid that a build like that can work. That is what is pretty stupid about TvP, unless you one base you NEVER feel safe (at least I dont) game 1 jinro played really really bad, didnt keep attacking with the marines. Maybe he was shocked at the zealots or something not sure. Havent watched the rest though i feel the same as u feel when playing t v p. i hope vods get updated fast cuz i missed it !!!!!!!! !! | ||
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eXigent.
Canada2419 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. thats not necessarily an allin as the build is designed to punish a player who opted to expand, thus will be effective in that situation, and even the game out, if not win right there. If the other player did not opt to expand, and instead stays on 1 base and masses, then the 1base build becomes more of an allin, because it has a much higher rate of failing and losing the game right there. | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. You do know that it's possible to do just enough damage to neutralize the expo advantage right? In this case, both of them result in a level playing field, and the game can continue to the next stage. It's only all-in if the Protoss keeps sticking to the attack even when it's no longer effective and is just suiciding himself. If he decides he has done enough damage, and pull back to expand, it is not an all-in. The games today did not reach that stage as Jinro could not push back the pressure. | ||
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leandroqm
Netherlands874 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Dark_Templar_Fast_Expand_(vs._Terran) | ||
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
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zekie
Canada380 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. Edit ... you know what, not even going to bother. | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
On December 11 2010 01:18 Vod.kaholic wrote: oGsMC played great games today. I don't understand why people can't see that his builds weren't cheesy - they were designed to exploit a timing and an advantage that he had to a significant degree, and Jinro just couldn't hold it off. It's people like MC who push the boundaries of these timing pushes that will help the game advance and mature - as they discover the strengths and weaknesses of various timing pushes, various openings will become ironed out in all matchup, and top players overall will become better at dealing with these kinds of openings. If one opening or another is found to be unstoppable, blizzard can patch it properly. But overall, I think people need to stop complaining about this strong early play as being "cheesy" when all it's doing is pushing the boundaries of the game in a good way. The goal of playing a match - whether on the ladder or in a tournament - is to win. If you can exploit an advantage early on that can help you win without screwing yourself over later, why wouldn't you? If you keep losing to strong early pushes, what aspect of your build is holding you back? What can you do to disrupt the opponent's timing? These are all questions we as players should be asking ourselves and our friends, not whining about the cheese and short games, but instead figuring out ways to deal with them. Yes, I love watching Terran players pull 20 SCV's off their mineral line. I'm totally happy I paid 20$ for a season ticket to watch 5 minute games every ZvT. It totally enhances the fucking game. And really, PLEASE use the hatch first argument. There haven't been enough people spouting ignorance on that subject already. | ||
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. That's bullshit. Teching and pushing from one base is a viable choice against an early expansion from your opponent because if you expand as an reaction you put yourself behind automatically and give your opponent a natural timing to attack (right when his expansion is kicking in income wise). However if you keep teching and push your opponent you will get map control and force your opponent to play defensively and make him throw down bunkers and stuff while you are expanding yourself which will even things out. When you are following this guideline there is also the chance of just outright killing your opponent if he has been to greedy. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13404 Posts
On December 11 2010 01:38 Sadist wrote: game 2 was stupid that a build like that can work. That is what is pretty stupid about TvP, unless you one base you NEVER feel safe (at least I dont) game 1 jinro played really really bad, didnt keep attacking with the marines. Maybe he was shocked at the zealots or something not sure. Havent watched the rest though The game 2 build on Xel'Naga is a build I have been using a lot on maps of that rush distance. It works for any gradual expand terran and holds off early aggression quite well. | ||
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kiniko
Canada163 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. Basically you're saying all players should just do expansion builds because if you don't, you're all-in and you're bad. Um. Ok. | ||
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dekuschrub
United States2069 Posts
those look like higher levels of my struggles with TvP on the ladder LOL forcefielding bunkers=  its soooo good and underused. Terrans need to start spreading out there bunkers like crazy (not like it would have mattered on Xel Naga... such a wide open nat and about 20 forcefields LOL) | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On December 11 2010 02:18 PartyBiscuit wrote: Anytime you 1 base tech with a 1 base push it's pretty much in all-in since you can't recover without severe damage or an outright win as your opponent probably has an expo and can actually afford to continue teching etc. The only real allin material game was the shakuras game with the 3 gate voidrays. Any time you fast expo, you are doing the same thing giving yourself vulnerable timing windows which a good player can exploit. Same can be said about 1 base play, it increases its vulnerability as the game goes on akin to a ticking time bomb. You are safe and in control for the early portion of the game but after a certain amount of time, you will lack econ wise and die. Teching to a timing attack in order to exploit vulnerabilities is NOT an allin. The attack is timed to inflict damage so the opposing player’s advantage later in the game in the case of a FE or tech wise (fast tech) is lessened/nullified when it is reached. The safest thing is to find a balance between the two, be too greedy any one way and a good player will make you pay. That is being showcased in the more recent GSL’s. I think the word cheese and allin needs to be banned from TL for a period of time while rules are reworked to prevent the shitstorm it currently is (spread of misinformation, lack of respect, WoW style arguments for balance) | ||
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ZeNd0kUn
United States331 Posts
A 3 gate stargate is a legit BO. A DT rush is a legit BO. It's the tendecy to use them repetitively to win games for winning's sake, that makes it cheesy. But I don't see the cheesiness in the aforementioned BO's in comparison to like Rain's and BitByBitPrime's SCV pulling all ins. I don't even see Maka Prime's bunker contain or delaying the hatchery against Nestea as cheese either. It was meant to put an opponent behind in the Macro game while pulling ahead himself and definitely not all in. Same with Rain's 5th game against Nestea .. as much as I don't like his play in general, that final game wasn't cheese in my opinion. | ||
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