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On September 20 2010 21:58 alecfisher wrote:man for real, people are saying cheese is apart of the game. i know it is, but having to put up with douchbags is apart of life. People generally ddont like douchbags, just like cheese. So when people get pissed off at cheese they have a right to do so. To all those people saying cheese apart of thegame deal with it.Well cheesing is being a douchbag and its gonna be looked down upon. Deal with it. + Show Spoiler +the only person i like for doing it was whiteraw, becasue he was famous for it and still pulled it off. that takes skill
If cheese didn't exist literally every build you use and see would be different and worse for it IMO. It's a very big part of strategy that has to be taken into account which is why people say it's part of the game, because if you enjoy the game as it is, you enjoy it partly because cheese exists.
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I can admit to some extreme fanboyism. I wanted TLO to keep going. I wanted to know someone who wasn't Korean could move forward. I was wrong. It is not inspiring. But it was not surprising. I think people know this is the (expected) order of things. We've all been waiting for the Koreans to step into the scene. Here it is. Watching tournaments with Foreigners dominating will likely be a thing of the past. Is anyone really surprised?
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I can see why you would hate cheese if you encounter it on ladder, but seeing it in a BoX tournament with pros? It's hands down a great thing, its not even debatable. Part of the charm of Best-of series are these mind games and meta games, how people react to being behind, the surprise factor. Doubly satisfying is when someone like Tester overcomes these factors. If TLO somehow fought it off, you would have orgasmed until you passed out, admit it.
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On September 20 2010 21:59 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:54 keV. wrote:
Actually, there is plenty wrong with bashing all Koreans OR TLO's fucking teammate Yeah, there's like three people here doing anything resembling that, if that. Stop making everything into some giant drama fest. The majority of "bashing" is just people rightfully expressing their opinion that cheese is cheap and terrible sportsmanship. What?
As long as you play within the rules of the game, any strategy is 100% fine. You play to win, not for respect. Sportsmanship has nothing to do with ingame actions.
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On September 20 2010 21:48 Wolfpox wrote:
There's nothing wrong with bitching about cheese. It's lame, not entertaining, and even the player himself said he was ashamed of it.
Trying to seem unbiased and neutral is pretentious in this case. Just be honest, it was terrible and lame.
It was only terrible and lame because TLO didn't see it coming. Had he seen it coming and countered it, the game would not have ended so early, or would have ended early going the other way, in which case people would be all fist pumping and happy that TLO won.
Tester game 3 was cheese, but Tester overcame the cheese and people were all happy about that.
I feel the first game lasted as long as it did not due to TLO's amazing ability, but due to Hyperdub's mistake(s). Imagine if that match were TLO vs Clide instead, it's less likely that Clide would have lost a match once he's managed such a lead (which reminds me, sign me on for Clide's fanclub).
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On September 20 2010 22:01 Mellois wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:52 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:43 Angra wrote:On September 20 2010 21:41 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:38 Angra wrote:
I haven't read any of this thread but I'm assuming the last 5-6 pages have been people raging about TLO losing and trash-talking Hyperdub and being incredibly disrespectful towards him. Shit like that really needs to stop. It gives this website a horrible image. Please, have some sense, and some respect.
Yeah I wanted TLO to advance but Hyperdub deserved the win. There's no other way about it. Congrats to Hyperdub and I hope he puts up a good fight against Tester next round. Better luck to TLO next time. I don't respect cheese. I don't think he deserved the win for a retarded coin toss. It's a cheap way to win and it cheapens the game. It's the type of unsportsmanlike garbage you see with the constant faux "injuries" in soccer. It's bad for the sport. You don't respect every single professional Brood War player in existence then, including Boxer. They all cheesed at some point or another. It's a valid option to win games. Get used to it. Okay, cool, then I don't. Cheese is bad for the game as a spectator sport. It's the equivalent of distracting the referee while you deal a low blow. Note that there's a difference between not respecting a player (I think Hyperdub is a great player) and not respecting a game he played. I don't put anyone on a pedestal, nor do I demonize anyone. If you play entertaining games and have talent, cool. If you go for the zero skill cheap trick, I'm not going to offer some sort of feigned props to games well played, because the deciding game was decidedly not so. Cheese is bad for the game as a spectator sport? I'm pretty sure Boxer who basically made BW a spectator sport cheesed quite a few times which made for very entertaining games...
Which is why professional BW took off so well as a spectator sport in the West.
Oh wait.
Cheesing a deciding match is not entertaining. It just isn't. It's like watching a game of fucking thumb war.
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TLO nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I was so sure either idra or tlo would make it to the semi's  Ah well, next month.. next month
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On September 20 2010 21:57 Honeybadger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:53 McFoo wrote:
Cheese is part of the game and a viable strategy. It's a strategy involving a lack of talent.
Flash and Jaedong aren't lacking in talent, and i've seen those two cheese each other at the same time.
Drilling a build order in order to end a game that you know you're likely to lose in any other situation and throwing everything into a single push that early in the game, is just a pathetic show of poor form and a lack of ingenuity. Great generals didn't follow the book, either. There are a lot of people who could glean some understanding about everything, including SCII, from sun tzu's art of war.
I don't think Sun Tzu would have said:
"Don't use an effective strategy because some people watching it on their computers at home won't enjoy it."
Jaedong has incorporated cheese into a load of his Bo5s because it's a good strategy in the wide sense, not just the game but for the Bo5. You use it when you think your opponent will be off-guard.
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On September 20 2010 21:40 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Players have to do what they can to win. There is no other objective. Mixing up your builds, cheese as some will call it, is part of winning series. There is no reason to be upset with Hyperdub. Dario played great and will show what he is capable of next time.
First of all I fully agree with this and on the second hand. TLO is famous for very creative and sometimes cheesy play so why the hell would you blame Hyperdub for a proxy-rax?
Too bad Dario, next time :-).. I believe :D!
Cheesing is part of the game and is showing strength and confidence from a player, not poor performance or LACK of confidence. Cheese can work out and throw your opponent off OR if he defends it really well it can throw you off.
Really we've seen so much great players cheese and a cheese is not easier to pull off than a standard game even though the difficulty in cheese lies in different aspects.
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On September 20 2010 22:02 Shatter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:59 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:54 keV. wrote:
Actually, there is plenty wrong with bashing all Koreans OR TLO's fucking teammate Yeah, there's like three people here doing anything resembling that, if that. Stop making everything into some giant drama fest. The majority of "bashing" is just people rightfully expressing their opinion that cheese is cheap and terrible sportsmanship. What? As long as you play within the rules of the game, any strategy is 100% fine. You play to win, not for respect. Sportsmanship has nothing to do with ingame actions.
I agree! Good sportsmanship would be to shake hands with your opponent after you got cheesed!
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On September 20 2010 22:02 ironchef wrote:
I can see why you would hate cheese if you encounter it on ladder, but seeing it in a BoX tournament with pros? It's hands down a great thing, its not even debatable. Part of the charm of Best-of series are these mind games and meta games, how people react to being behind, the surprise factor. Doubly satisfying is when someone like Tester overcomes these factors. If TLO somehow fought it off, you would have orgasmed until you passed out, admit it.
No doubt. I loved watching JD 4 pool flash and I almost passed out when he did it again in the game after. It was amazing to watch and it was definitely exciting. Cheese keeps the game honest as well.
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On September 20 2010 21:58 alecfisher wrote:
man for real, people are saying cheese is apart of the game. i know it is, but having to put up with douchbags is apart of life. People generally ddont like douchbags, just like cheese. So when people get pissed off at cheese they have a right to do so.
No, they are being short sighted. Without unstable aggressive openers, the game would be overly skewed toward what are now unstable passive openers that focus on fast teching or econ. This would be boring. Starcraft is an RTS that is balanced with the understood concepts of a rush, a boom, or a balanced aproach to play.
Remove the rush, and you only have the boom, ie econ oriented games (as these builds would no longer be unstable, like rushing), is this what you people really want?
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On September 20 2010 21:56 Shizuru~ wrote:
For all you guys bashing on Hyperdub haters, at least take a step back and think about what just happened for a second, i wouldn't argue whether or not Hyperdub is the better player. But That WAS the most amazing series ever so far in the history of SC2, after the miraculous come back of TLO after game one i believe we all experience the hype, rush and excitement we haven't felt before for an SC2 games before, its only natural us fans gets worked up that such an entertaining player is eliminated and some still can't get over with that fact and needed to vent such frustrations, and you guys that bashing the people that is finding a reason or target of venting (IE Hyperdub). isn't exactly helping but making these threads looks worse...
everyone just chill for a second and let the fact sink on TLO fans.
I did not think the first game is epic at all. It is only epic for TLO fans. It is not a good match for middle ground fans. It is more of a screwup from Hyperdub than greatness from TLO.
Hyperdub basically left his most important expansion empty, and also not attacking TLO's expansion, putting all his army at the center. It is like he's never watched a TvT game in BW before. TvT is all about Economy, map center is never the focal point.
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United States3214 Posts
On September 20 2010 21:59 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:54 keV. wrote:
Actually, there is plenty wrong with bashing all Koreans OR TLO's fucking teammate Yeah, there's like three people here doing anything resembling that, if that. Stop making everything into some giant drama fest. The majority of "bashing" is just people rightfully expressing their opinion that cheese is cheap and terrible sportsmanship. Then there's the Machiavelli wannabes who never met a shanker they didn't like saying all's fair as long as you win. I think this is a legitimate difference of opinion without resorting to witch hunts like "omg u so racist!".
What the fuck are you talking about?
I'm clearly talking about excessive player bashing, that is clearly not a right on this website.
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On September 20 2010 22:03 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 22:01 Mellois wrote:On September 20 2010 21:52 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:43 Angra wrote:On September 20 2010 21:41 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:38 Angra wrote:
I haven't read any of this thread but I'm assuming the last 5-6 pages have been people raging about TLO losing and trash-talking Hyperdub and being incredibly disrespectful towards him. Shit like that really needs to stop. It gives this website a horrible image. Please, have some sense, and some respect.
Yeah I wanted TLO to advance but Hyperdub deserved the win. There's no other way about it. Congrats to Hyperdub and I hope he puts up a good fight against Tester next round. Better luck to TLO next time. I don't respect cheese. I don't think he deserved the win for a retarded coin toss. It's a cheap way to win and it cheapens the game. It's the type of unsportsmanlike garbage you see with the constant faux "injuries" in soccer. It's bad for the sport. You don't respect every single professional Brood War player in existence then, including Boxer. They all cheesed at some point or another. It's a valid option to win games. Get used to it. Okay, cool, then I don't. Cheese is bad for the game as a spectator sport. It's the equivalent of distracting the referee while you deal a low blow. Note that there's a difference between not respecting a player (I think Hyperdub is a great player) and not respecting a game he played. I don't put anyone on a pedestal, nor do I demonize anyone. If you play entertaining games and have talent, cool. If you go for the zero skill cheap trick, I'm not going to offer some sort of feigned props to games well played, because the deciding game was decidedly not so. Cheese is bad for the game as a spectator sport? I'm pretty sure Boxer who basically made BW a spectator sport cheesed quite a few times which made for very entertaining games... Which is why professional BW took off so well as a spectator sport in the West. Oh wait. Cheesing a deciding match is not entertaining. It just isn't. It's like watching a game of fucking thumb war.
Has any game taken off so well as a spectator sport in the West? I don't think any game has been as popular as a spectator sport as BW.
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On September 20 2010 22:02 Shatter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 21:59 kojinshugi wrote:On September 20 2010 21:54 keV. wrote:
Actually, there is plenty wrong with bashing all Koreans OR TLO's fucking teammate Yeah, there's like three people here doing anything resembling that, if that. Stop making everything into some giant drama fest. The majority of "bashing" is just people rightfully expressing their opinion that cheese is cheap and terrible sportsmanship. What? As long as you play within the rules of the game, anything is 100% fine. You play to win, not for respect. Sportsmanship has nothing to do with ingame actions.
Okay, and that's your opinion, one which most sane human beings don't share.
You don't deal low blows when the ref isn't looking just because the rules of the game let you get away with it and win.
Sportsmanship isn't just about having a modicum of self control when making public statements. It's about playing fairly, and still winning.
In real life of course none of that matters. In real war of course you do everything you need to to win. But in sports, we are allowed to have slightly higher ideals and expectations of fairness.
And we're most certainly allowed to think that someone getting a win by executing a cheap, no-talent trick is not deserving of applause.
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TLO is known for his cheese tactics, right ?
But, really, I can't understand the lack of scout. Just watch the DAVIT vs Clide game, they both scout everywhere for cheese.
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Game 1 was awesome, but in general TLO seemed to be behind everytime in the early game. I don't understand why he likes hellions so much, it seemed like a huge waste everytime.
Hyperdub did have a bit of luck in the last game, but cheesing is a legit technique to take a serie and you can't blame him for that, overall I have the impression that his play was better in this series (safer in a way, not depending on cute things like hero nukes). TLO was super entertaining tho. Hope he can go even farther in the next season.
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On September 20 2010 22:05 keV. wrote:
I'm clearly talking about excessive player bashing, that is clearly not a right on this website.
Point to examples of like, five separate people doing so.
Or shut the hell up.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 20 2010 21:57 Aprikosen wrote:
I feel like TLO didn´t live up to the enormous hype the community has created around him but that is not so suprising. Game 1 was the only entertaining game of all three and even in that game both players performed extremely sloppy. Even more so in game 2 and game 3 was just a gamble on Hyper´s part which turned out to be a really good decision by him.
Although the games were really high-paced at times I expect to see far more interesting TvTs in the near future, the players couldn´t multitask to keep up with how fast paced the game was, which made the game look sloppy.
Actually I think he lived quite up to the expectations. TLO's extreme creativity and multitasking skills really show in those drawn out battles. He seemed to be lacking a bit of confidence in the opening of all the games, but it's the sign of a great player that he wins the all out war.
Even if the players let their minerals get high in game 1, it's really all about the gas. In any other match up the gold expansion of Hyperdub would have made an incredible diffrence, but since it doesn't offer more gas, it just made him look like a noob who couldn't spend his minerals.
Atleast it makes me feel better about my TvT's, to see these great players loose huge armies and advantages to some retarded position 
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EPT
