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On August 24 2010 07:15 hizBALLIN wrote:
To be perfectly honest Tesla, when you make calls like you did, you open yourself up to people questioning whether you have the legitimate judgement skills to run a tournament properly. This is a forum where we discuss all aspects of starcraft, and how they're managed and officiated is one of them. Clearly a portion of the community is concerned to the extent where they feel the need to discuss the legitimacy of your tournament. It's time for you to man up and realize that our concerns are both founded, and our's to have.
I say this with all due respect, believe me. I have a hard time tolerating the "it was my decision, I made it, now don't even question it on a forum of public discussion" approach. You are much in the wrong here. TL forums exist for conversations like this. Evidence that questionable officiating took place, was recognized, and discussed ad nauseam will honestly only strengthen the community as it will serve as a learning tool for budding officials looking to hold their own competitions, and help upcoming players see fleshed out arguments about what is acceptable to expect as far as "calls" go in tournys that they might participate in. Let this incident be a learning experience for them, as I hope it should have been a learning experience for you.
Clearly it was a stressful event for you and your volunteer staffing as it were. There was definitely not enough emphasis put on things like timeline and the almost clerical work of updating brackets, and hopefully in the future you can find a happy medium of between having an appropriate amount of participants and volunteers. Hopefully connection issues, et cetera, won't crop up like they did in this tournament. That really doesn't excuse your latest post where you raged (and boy did you rage) and levied some personal attacks against posters isn't the sort of behavior befitting an individual looking to run a competition of any format, broadcast in any medium.
Very true. You know how much shit I got when I started the ITL??? Or anytime I make a decision?
This is one of many reasons why tournament organizers should not ever cast while organizing the tournament. Ever.
Hopefully you gals can learn from this! I know you have a lot of experience in DoTA Tesla, but SC2 is a different beast. No iCCup automated brackets, b.net is 100% useless and such.
Either way doing a 512 person tournament is not easy so kudos for trying it. It sucks we all can't be cyborgs like Xeris....
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On August 24 2010 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
Further more - I said if he didn't like what we did, he doesn't need to join the next one. Same stands for people like you, vx70GTOJudgexv.
I'm not bitching, for the record. I'm offering an opinion, which is what is done on a discussion board.
All I said is he is within every right to be upset, and it came across as you threatening to ban him from future tournaments for his choice in a situation where an admin said "You can choose A or B." I gave Cat a piece of advice about decision making, which is absolutely one of the toughest things to do in a tournament situation.
Also, I find it somewhat humorous that you single me out for a post that was in no way inflammatory, just simply observations. I did, ya know, spend an hour of my morning after work a few days ago reading this thread in full and giving you constructive pointers on what I've seen go wrong and ways to help. Curious to see if you read that PM.
I'm not saying you can't handle 512 people like some others. Maybe you can, maybe you can't, 1 tournament is not enough to judge that. Was it a bit over-ambitious in my opinion? Absolutely. Can you learn from this? Absolutely. So far though, one admin has jumped on me for asking, as a bystander and interested fan, why you started at 11 PM EDT for a North American tournament, and the other has jumped on me for defending a player who seems to be taking a lot of unnecessary heat. I understand that you're stressed out, I've been there. But part of taking on the responsibility of running a tournament is being able to withstand the flak you're going to catch when something goes wrong. If you have all of the iCCup experience that you've cited, then you should know that far and away, TeamLiquid can easily be the most critical site in all of StarCraft. And they should be, because the best should expect the best.
I hope you read that PM I sent, and I hope that you do this again. I'm offering you a hand here - contact me via PM for a way to get in touch with me, and if you have any questions, I'm more than happy to help out anyone trying to get into SC2 in organizing. Organizers are the lifeblood of the community just as much as players. Without them, this is just another video game with awesome storylines and a ladder.
And learn to let things just roll off your shoulders sometimes, life will be a lot easier in this field.
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On August 24 2010 06:03 crazeman wrote:
Rematches or "do-overs" are actually pretty rare. Honestly the only time that I remember a do-over in any profession sport was in the NBA a few seasons ago where the hawks and heat replayed the last few minutes of a game because the people doing the boxscore incorrectly gave shaq his 6th foul with a few minutes left. On the other hand, I can think of a good 10 instances off the top of my head where the wrong decision was made and the commissioner stuck to the rules as opposed to overturning it and I'm a huge espn/sport nut.
That's funny how you had to go back to a 1999 FIFA article to find an instance where there was a rematch when there was at least a few instances in the 2010 world cup alone where the wrong decision was made.
Honestly if the teams didn't agree to a rematch beforehand, I doubt FIFA would issue a do-over. What happened to FIFA's sense of righteousness in this year's world cup when the ref called an invisible foul on the US and took away the goal at the last second? Or what happened when England didn't get their goal when the ball hit the crossbar and bounced pass the goal line?
No disrespect, but you are rambling. There are rematches in sports and that's what I_LOVE_BACON questioned, case closed.
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On August 24 2010 09:25 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 06:03 crazeman wrote:
Rematches or "do-overs" are actually pretty rare. Honestly the only time that I remember a do-over in any profession sport was in the NBA a few seasons ago where the hawks and heat replayed the last few minutes of a game because the people doing the boxscore incorrectly gave shaq his 6th foul with a few minutes left. On the other hand, I can think of a good 10 instances off the top of my head where the wrong decision was made and the commissioner stuck to the rules as opposed to overturning it and I'm a huge espn/sport nut.
That's funny how you had to go back to a 1999 FIFA article to find an instance where there was a rematch when there was at least a few instances in the 2010 world cup alone where the wrong decision was made.
Honestly if the teams didn't agree to a rematch beforehand, I doubt FIFA would issue a do-over. What happened to FIFA's sense of righteousness in this year's world cup when the ref called an invisible foul on the US and took away the goal at the last second? Or what happened when England didn't get their goal when the ball hit the crossbar and bounced pass the goal line? No disrespect, but you are rambling. There are rematches in sports and that's what I_LOVE_BACON questioned, case closed.
A do-over which was instigated by the teams; not the officials. What happened there is what happened in game 1 of the match in question. Your example completely disregards the core issue which this discussion has been about; and that's officials changing their calls retroactively. The game in question which you cited was the team's doing and FIFA merely allowed it.
edit: There's nothing else to say on the issue at this point. It has been fleshed out by many people in this thread and we can only hope other tournament organizers in the future learn from this. Apologies for even bumping this silly debate.
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On August 23 2010 13:54 Nightmarjoo wrote:
To make it clear, I (Lyra) lost to Silver 0-3 in finals.
.. THANK YOU
Too much bullshit just to get to some results and figure out what happened.
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*3 hours later* "Okay folks were almost done sorting out round 1."
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On August 24 2010 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 00:10 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On August 23 2010 18:47 StarcraftMan wrote:
An ammendment they (and other tourney admins) can make for future tourneys is if Player B loses connection and Player A is gracious enough to allow a rematch rather than taking the win, that Player A be allowed a regame should Player A lose connection, provided that Player A was in a "competitive" position when he/she lost connection. Such an ammendment would have granted Silver an immediate rematch on his loss of connection, provided that the admins believed Silver was in a "competitive" position based on the replay. Sure, just leave it ambiguous again... If Player A is provided one set of rules, player B should be provided the exact same rules, regardless of the actions of player A. Ajtls has every right to be pissed in this scenario. @Cat: If you're going to tell them a decision could be reversed, you're better off just telling them to chill out and a decision will be made later. @Tesla: Threatening to DQ Ajtls from this and future tournaments for acting completely legally within the rules of the tournament provided to him is really low. Whether you or anyone agrees with the ethics of the situation, the fact of the matter is thus: He was offered option A or B by the rules. He chose option A. If you guys don't like the outcome of option A, that sucks, and change it in the next tournament. But him being on tilt for being forced into a redo is completely acceptable and understandable - why is Silver given one set of rules and he another? Just like to point out, in addition to all of this, that if Silver took the win, no one would be QQing about it. Listen and listen very closely...or read very carefully please. It is not very often I actually straight out swear so I am going to say something. " STOP BITCHING!". Its our damn tournament. We put the work in, we fucking hosted it...We take all the flack REGARDLES of what happens. So just stop it already. This month's tournament is over. I was not saying we would disqualify him, however I also thought I put the rules about disconnect in there, which I clearly did not. Which is also going to change. There will be no vague or ambiguous rules here. I will say this one final time.. EVERYONE needs to drop this. At this point it doesn't matter if you think you are right, if you think you are wrong, if you feel the decision was fair or unfair. Our FINAL call was made and done. The matches were played out and all is done. I am so sick of reading all the bullshit excuses. Since most Starcraft players are male, I can say this without offending people. But all of you fighting about this still and dragging this on need to just grow the fuck up and man up. Thats right - MAN up. Be a man about it and accept it as it is. I don't even care if you guys are mad at me for posting like this. You have NO clue how stressful this tournament was. How close I came to a panic attack a few times cause of it. We put weeks into it. Further more - I said if he didn't like what we did, he doesn't need to join the next one. Same stands for people like you, vx70GTOJudgexv. I can never understand how people who work their asses off get so much flack for doing their best and not meeting your expectations. Is every baseball game, football game, basketball game or even, ever WPT fair? Does everyone always follow the Ethic thing to do? NO! The organizers have gotta do what they gotta do. Btw - This isn't poker. So please stop using poker terms on here. I play poker to but COME ON! Comparing Poker to Starcraft 2? Really now? They aren't really that relatively related. Poker is more or less knowing the cards, reading the people you play against, bluffing and knowing when to ride on your own luck. Btw - I play poker. So do me a favor and don't attempt to correct what I say, cause I've made money off of playing poker...I just don't see it as a job. I prefer to do it for fun and laugh when guys get their butts kicked by a chick. Now all of you please stop this. This is really far enough and beating an already dead horse is terrible.
This is unprofessional for a tourney organizer. If you gals don't learn from your mistakes in this tourney, nobody's going to want to waste their time with future tourneys.
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I think this was a case of crisis of conscience. While it was unsporting for ajtls to take the win, the rules of the tournament had already been written to handle these situations.
Tournament organizers have the power to overturn these decisions but people only really expect them to uphold the rules and only overturn a win if it entails major things like cheating or exceptionally bad conduct. This decision is worrying to tournament players as it highlights at any time a win can be overturned due to personal opinion.
I was there watching the stream at the time, I really felt exactly the same as everyone else, in that it was poor sportsmanship. It didn't seem sporting at all but a resolution was reached by following the rules.
Anyway that's just my take on the subject. Congratz on hosting your first tourney Cat and Tesla.
(On another note, it might be better to stream replays of matches and not stream them live to make sure there's no foul play.)
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On August 24 2010 07:25 Alou wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On August 24 2010 00:10 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On August 23 2010 18:47 StarcraftMan wrote:
An ammendment they (and other tourney admins) can make for future tourneys is if Player B loses connection and Player A is gracious enough to allow a rematch rather than taking the win, that Player A be allowed a regame should Player A lose connection, provided that Player A was in a "competitive" position when he/she lost connection. Such an ammendment would have granted Silver an immediate rematch on his loss of connection, provided that the admins believed Silver was in a "competitive" position based on the replay. Sure, just leave it ambiguous again... If Player A is provided one set of rules, player B should be provided the exact same rules, regardless of the actions of player A. Ajtls has every right to be pissed in this scenario. @Cat: If you're going to tell them a decision could be reversed, you're better off just telling them to chill out and a decision will be made later. @Tesla: Threatening to DQ Ajtls from this and future tournaments for acting completely legally within the rules of the tournament provided to him is really low. Whether you or anyone agrees with the ethics of the situation, the fact of the matter is thus: He was offered option A or B by the rules. He chose option A. If you guys don't like the outcome of option A, that sucks, and change it in the next tournament. But him being on tilt for being forced into a redo is completely acceptable and understandable - why is Silver given one set of rules and he another? Just like to point out, in addition to all of this, that if Silver took the win, no one would be QQing about it. Listen and listen very closely...or read very carefully please. It is not very often I actually straight out swear so I am going to say something. " STOP BITCHING!". Its our damn tournament. We put the work in, we fucking hosted it...We take all the flack REGARDLES of what happens. So just stop it already. This month's tournament is over. I was not saying we would disqualify him, however I also thought I put the rules about disconnect in there, which I clearly did not. Which is also going to change. There will be no vague or ambiguous rules here. I will say this one final time.. EVERYONE needs to drop this. At this point it doesn't matter if you think you are right, if you think you are wrong, if you feel the decision was fair or unfair. Our FINAL call was made and done. The matches were played out and all is done. I am so sick of reading all the bullshit excuses. Since most Starcraft players are male, I can say this without offending people. But all of you fighting about this still and dragging this on need to just grow the fuck up and man up. Thats right - MAN up. Be a man about it and accept it as it is. I don't even care if you guys are mad at me for posting like this. You have NO clue how stressful this tournament was. How close I came to a panic attack a few times cause of it. We put weeks into it. Further more - I said if he didn't like what we did, he doesn't need to join the next one. Same stands for people like you, vx70GTOJudgexv. I can never understand how people who work their asses off get so much flack for doing their best and not meeting your expectations. Is every baseball game, football game, basketball game or even, ever WPT fair? Does everyone always follow the Ethic thing to do? NO! The organizers have gotta do what they gotta do. Btw - This isn't poker. So please stop using poker terms on here. I play poker to but COME ON! Comparing Poker to Starcraft 2? Really now? They aren't really that relatively related. Poker is more or less knowing the cards, reading the people you play against, bluffing and knowing when to ride on your own luck. Btw - I play poker. So do me a favor and don't attempt to correct what I say, cause I've made money off of playing poker...I just don't see it as a job. I prefer to do it for fun and laugh when guys get their butts kicked by a chick. Now all of you please stop this. This is really far enough and beating an already dead horse is terrible. Run a smaller tournament next time. You don't have the abilities to run a 512 man tournament as this event shows. You can say all you want about how you worked weeks on this tournament, but the results speak for themselves. You're far to overambitious with this. I've been on Skype when you get stressed over 32 people so I'm not sure why you guys thought you could just go to 512.
Alou shut up. I am so sick of you personally attacking people. You're actions and other people's actions (who I wont name) are EXACTLY why I quit ICCup. Cause while I have raged once, over a stressful tournament and my pc completely crashing beyond repair...I dont constantly ruin a reputation that OTHERS spent years building up. I understand that my latest posts have not been so professional but lets see what you alone have done with this tournament:
* You have attacked our decisions and why we even decided to host a tournament
* You have attacked viewers in the stream when you were a mod
* You sat there and bitched that things were not going fast enough for you and then when we asked you to come assist us, you said no...and continued to be very rude.
Right now I have NO respect for you. As for freaking about the 32 man ones...Yes thats because what did you really do back then? You didnt completely understand your job at that point and I was thrown into assisting you guys. Regardless if I wanted to or not. Further more - Tell me, do you HONESTLY think that other event organizers dont get worried? Dont want to make sure all goes well? Well they might freak a bit too..I guess I am just willing to let people see that side of me. Now how about you STOP telling us what you THINK we can and cant do. This was our first attempt. Everything in the future ones should be faster and all. So with that, I am done wasting my time on you. Its clear that you have no respect for certain people in the community and it would be very kind if you just stopped attacking us...and well just left us alone since you feel such hatred towards us. Thanks.
On August 24 2010 07:15 hizBALLIN wrote:
To be perfectly honest Tesla, when you make calls like you did, you open yourself up to people questioning whether you have the legitimate judgement skills to run a tournament properly. This is a forum where we discuss all aspects of starcraft, and how they're managed and officiated is one of them. Clearly a portion of the community is concerned to the extent where they feel the need to discuss the legitimacy of your tournament. It's time for you to man up and realize that our concerns are both founded, and our's to have.
I say this with all due respect, believe me. I have a hard time tolerating the "it was my decision, I made it, now don't even question it on a forum of public discussion" approach. You are much in the wrong here. TL forums exist for conversations like this. Evidence that questionable officiating took place, was recognized, and discussed ad nauseam will honestly only strengthen the community as it will serve as a learning tool for budding officials looking to hold their own competitions, and help upcoming players see fleshed out arguments about what is acceptable to expect as far as "calls" go in tournys that they might participate in. Let this incident be a learning experience for them, as I hope it should have been a learning experience for you.
Clearly it was a stressful event for you and your volunteer staffing as it were. There was definitely not enough emphasis put on things like timeline and the almost clerical work of updating brackets, and hopefully in the future you can find a happy medium of between having an appropriate amount of participants and volunteers. Hopefully connection issues, et cetera, won't crop up like they did in this tournament. That really doesn't excuse your latest post where you raged (and boy did you rage) and levied some personal attacks against posters isn't the sort of behavior befitting an individual looking to run a competition of any format, broadcast in any medium.
You are completely correct. I did open myself up to be questioned and all..I should not have been so mad however, I have had a very stressful couple of weeks. From everything to the tournament, to my pc being completely broken at the moment. I do not mean that I dont want people to give us their feedback. I guess I just was very stressed and found how some of it was handed towards us, came off very rude. You are completely right, this is a forum for discussing and it should be discussed. Again, my apologies for what occurred. As for the rules - I thought I would get to update them this week but I guess it will take a bit longer...I gotta wait till my new pc is up and running. Thank you again for your feed back. You are also very right..I did rage, I was in a very, very bad mood...I just thought people would understand our decision more and I guess not. So this is something that must clearly be cleared up during the next tournament. Also as for manning up, well thats a bit hard for me as I'm a woman  ...However, thank you again for your feed back. I hope to things will go much better during our next tournament.
On August 24 2010 07:26 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 07:15 hizBALLIN wrote:
To be perfectly honest Tesla, when you make calls like you did, you open yourself up to people questioning whether you have the legitimate judgement skills to run a tournament properly. This is a forum where we discuss all aspects of starcraft, and how they're managed and officiated is one of them. Clearly a portion of the community is concerned to the extent where they feel the need to discuss the legitimacy of your tournament. It's time for you to man up and realize that our concerns are both founded, and our's to have.
I say this with all due respect, believe me. I have a hard time tolerating the "it was my decision, I made it, now don't even question it on a forum of public discussion" approach. You are much in the wrong here. TL forums exist for conversations like this. Evidence that questionable officiating took place, was recognized, and discussed ad nauseam will honestly only strengthen the community as it will serve as a learning tool for budding officials looking to hold their own competitions, and help upcoming players see fleshed out arguments about what is acceptable to expect as far as "calls" go in tournys that they might participate in. Let this incident be a learning experience for them, as I hope it should have been a learning experience for you.
Clearly it was a stressful event for you and your volunteer staffing as it were. There was definitely not enough emphasis put on things like timeline and the almost clerical work of updating brackets, and hopefully in the future you can find a happy medium of between having an appropriate amount of participants and volunteers. Hopefully connection issues, et cetera, won't crop up like they did in this tournament. That really doesn't excuse your latest post where you raged (and boy did you rage) and levied some personal attacks against posters isn't the sort of behavior befitting an individual looking to run a competition of any format, broadcast in any medium. Very true. You know how much shit I got when I started the ITL??? Or anytime I make a decision? This is one of many reasons why tournament organizers should not ever cast while organizing the tournament. Ever. Hopefully you gals can learn from this! I know you have a lot of experience in DoTA Tesla, but SC2 is a different beast. No iCCup automated brackets, b.net is 100% useless and such. Either way doing a 512 person tournament is not easy so kudos for trying it. It sucks we all can't be cyborgs like Xeris....
Thanks for your feedback on what tournament organizers should and shouldn't do. However, if I remember correctly...32 man tournament is a walk in a park compared to something like this. We also never could agree on much, last time I remembered. Further more - My experience is long before you were with iccup. My experience was in Sc 1, DotA and Sc 2. As well as many other fields. Do not attempt to talk to me like I have no clue of what I am doing. Btw - DotA does host tournaments on ICCup. You should go look it up sometime. There was suppose to be a bracket thing - Feel free to ask Ant sometime about it...Oh wait...you did know that..I remember now...cause you told me how the Tv section was top priority for iccup. Makes me sad, honestly. I wish bw had more support like it use to.
On August 24 2010 08:58 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:
Further more - I said if he didn't like what we did, he doesn't need to join the next one. Same stands for people like you, vx70GTOJudgexv. I'm not bitching, for the record. I'm offering an opinion, which is what is done on a discussion board. All I said is he is within every right to be upset, and it came across as you threatening to ban him from future tournaments for his choice in a situation where an admin said "You can choose A or B." I gave Cat a piece of advice about decision making, which is absolutely one of the toughest things to do in a tournament situation. Also, I find it somewhat humorous that you single me out for a post that was in no way inflammatory, just simply observations. I did, ya know, spend an hour of my morning after work a few days ago reading this thread in full and giving you constructive pointers on what I've seen go wrong and ways to help. Curious to see if you read that PM. I'm not saying you can't handle 512 people like some others. Maybe you can, maybe you can't, 1 tournament is not enough to judge that. Was it a bit over-ambitious in my opinion? Absolutely. Can you learn from this? Absolutely. So far though, one admin has jumped on me for asking, as a bystander and interested fan, why you started at 11 PM EDT for a North American tournament, and the other has jumped on me for defending a player who seems to be taking a lot of unnecessary heat. I understand that you're stressed out, I've been there. But part of taking on the responsibility of running a tournament is being able to withstand the flak you're going to catch when something goes wrong. If you have all of the iCCup experience that you've cited, then you should know that far and away, TeamLiquid can easily be the most critical site in all of StarCraft. And they should be, because the best should expect the best. I hope you read that PM I sent, and I hope that you do this again. I'm offering you a hand here - contact me via PM for a way to get in touch with me, and if you have any questions, I'm more than happy to help out anyone trying to get into SC2 in organizing. Organizers are the lifeblood of the community just as much as players. Without them, this is just another video game with awesome storylines and a ladder. And learn to let things just roll off your shoulders sometimes, life will be a lot easier in this field.
My apologies again - Like I said..I have been very stressed out. For sure I will look at your pm and consider everything you have sent me. Thank you again for taking the time to do this.
On August 24 2010 19:56 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:23 ICCup.Tesla wrote:On August 24 2010 00:10 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On August 23 2010 18:47 StarcraftMan wrote:
An ammendment they (and other tourney admins) can make for future tourneys is if Player B loses connection and Player A is gracious enough to allow a rematch rather than taking the win, that Player A be allowed a regame should Player A lose connection, provided that Player A was in a "competitive" position when he/she lost connection. Such an ammendment would have granted Silver an immediate rematch on his loss of connection, provided that the admins believed Silver was in a "competitive" position based on the replay. Sure, just leave it ambiguous again... If Player A is provided one set of rules, player B should be provided the exact same rules, regardless of the actions of player A. Ajtls has every right to be pissed in this scenario. @Cat: If you're going to tell them a decision could be reversed, you're better off just telling them to chill out and a decision will be made later. @Tesla: Threatening to DQ Ajtls from this and future tournaments for acting completely legally within the rules of the tournament provided to him is really low. Whether you or anyone agrees with the ethics of the situation, the fact of the matter is thus: He was offered option A or B by the rules. He chose option A. If you guys don't like the outcome of option A, that sucks, and change it in the next tournament. But him being on tilt for being forced into a redo is completely acceptable and understandable - why is Silver given one set of rules and he another? Just like to point out, in addition to all of this, that if Silver took the win, no one would be QQing about it. Listen and listen very closely...or read very carefully please. It is not very often I actually straight out swear so I am going to say something. " STOP BITCHING!". Its our damn tournament. We put the work in, we fucking hosted it...We take all the flack REGARDLES of what happens. So just stop it already. This month's tournament is over. I was not saying we would disqualify him, however I also thought I put the rules about disconnect in there, which I clearly did not. Which is also going to change. There will be no vague or ambiguous rules here. I will say this one final time.. EVERYONE needs to drop this. At this point it doesn't matter if you think you are right, if you think you are wrong, if you feel the decision was fair or unfair. Our FINAL call was made and done. The matches were played out and all is done. I am so sick of reading all the bullshit excuses. Since most Starcraft players are male, I can say this without offending people. But all of you fighting about this still and dragging this on need to just grow the fuck up and man up. Thats right - MAN up. Be a man about it and accept it as it is. I don't even care if you guys are mad at me for posting like this. You have NO clue how stressful this tournament was. How close I came to a panic attack a few times cause of it. We put weeks into it. Further more - I said if he didn't like what we did, he doesn't need to join the next one. Same stands for people like you, vx70GTOJudgexv. I can never understand how people who work their asses off get so much flack for doing their best and not meeting your expectations. Is every baseball game, football game, basketball game or even, ever WPT fair? Does everyone always follow the Ethic thing to do? NO! The organizers have gotta do what they gotta do. Btw - This isn't poker. So please stop using poker terms on here. I play poker to but COME ON! Comparing Poker to Starcraft 2? Really now? They aren't really that relatively related. Poker is more or less knowing the cards, reading the people you play against, bluffing and knowing when to ride on your own luck. Btw - I play poker. So do me a favor and don't attempt to correct what I say, cause I've made money off of playing poker...I just don't see it as a job. I prefer to do it for fun and laugh when guys get their butts kicked by a chick. Now all of you please stop this. This is really far enough and beating an already dead horse is terrible. This is unprofessional for a tourney organizer. If you gals don't learn from your mistakes in this tourney, nobody's going to want to waste their time with future tourneys.
Well..Like I said many times already - I am very sorry. We are learning from the mistakes, its just very stressful. So we are going to do many things to change the next up coming tournament. To make it much more smooth and much better. So thank you again everyone for baring with us...and well for baring with the fact that I did rage a bit.
On August 24 2010 22:17 CrisisXVII wrote:
I think this was a case of crisis of conscience. While it was unsporting for ajtls to take the win, the rules of the tournament had already been written to handle these situations.
Tournament organizers have the power to overturn these decisions but people only really expect them to uphold the rules and only overturn a win if it entails major things like cheating or exceptionally bad conduct. This decision is worrying to tournament players as it highlights at any time a win can be overturned due to personal opinion.
I was there watching the stream at the time, I really felt exactly the same as everyone else, in that it was poor sportsmanship. It didn't seem sporting at all but a resolution was reached by following the rules.
Anyway that's just my take on the subject. Congratz on hosting your first tourney Cat and Tesla.
(On another note, it might be better to stream replays of matches and not stream them live to make sure there's no foul play.)
Well Crisis..What occurred is I thought I had included in the rules about what would happen in case of disconnects...As it turns out I did not include it. So we had them written out just not up there. It is very hard for us to remember all the rules sometimes...especially in the heat of the moment, like during a tournament...This is something that we will change this for sure. Sorry again for everyone that does/did not understand our decision and all. We will make everything much more clear and unable to be misunderstood in the future tournaments. Once again, thank you for baring with us.
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will there be another one for September? I thought it was quite fun -.-
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On August 26 2010 09:10 Maelstrom.cobhc wrote:
will there be another one for September? I thought it was quite fun -.-
I really hope so. This does have a ton of potential to it, just needs refining.
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Congrats Silver. Tough call on the tournament organizers on Silver v ajtls, there's a hellofalot going on in the heat of the moment but I think that (ultimately) the right decision was made.
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Maelstorm - There will be another. Its just a matter of being able to organize it. Hey Trump! Ya...still alot going on in regards to that >.<
vx70GTOJudgexv - We are gonna do that refining and such. Thanks again to everyone for baring with us again. ^^
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![[image loading]](http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c279/Kotori_Muto/SC21/cooltext466458163-1.png)
Rules are being changed to the following:
+ Show Spoiler +* Do not be ill mannered, bad mannered or rude to anyone involved in the tournament. Doing so will result in a disqualification, upon decision of how bad the situation was from the Tournament Admins. We ask that all players remain respectful during the matches. Please treat others as you would like to treat you. * Observers are not allowed in during the games, to help ensure a fair play. The only observers allowed into a match are the ones stream/host. If you are confused as to who those people are, please refer to are "WHO" section. Thanks. * Any cheating or hacking will result in an automatic disqualification and a permanent suspension from all of our current and future events. There will be no second time. * If a person makes a false accusation, reports a false win or any other form of wasting our time - We will stop the tournament to disqualify the said player and remove them for a 1 month period from Minvera Tournaments. * During round 1, players may choose one of the following races to play: Protoss, Zerg, Terran or Random. Once you have picked one of these races and used it in round one, you are not allowed to use another race during that tournament. * The minute a round starts - the players have 15 minutes to start their matches. If a player does not show up for their match with in 15 minutes, it will be considered a forfeit and the other player will get a bye. (Any exceptions require prior Minvera Staff approval) * All players must allow Cat and Tesla to stream your match, if we ask. * Pause Game: A player doesn't need to agree for the game to be paused. He can unpause at any time. * In cases of disconnection the following will be done:1.) For rounds 1-7, if a disconnect occurs, the player that disconnected will receive a loss. - In the case of multiple disconnects due to forces outside of the control of players or the Minerva Staff, this rule is subject to admin discretion 2.) For rounds 8, 9 and matches for 3rd-4th if a disconnect occurs, the following will be done: - A: Whomever had a clear advantage to win in the game, at the time of disconnect, will be given the win based on factors at the discretion of the admin(s). - B: If the game was a stalemate, then the game must be replayed. - C: If a player was in a match and the match was 7 minutes or less, and a player disconnects - The game must be a rematch. - D. If the players were given the right to decide by the tournament admins, then the first decision would set the precedence by which procedure will be followed if another disconnect should occur later in the series by either player. * Finally but not least - We require that all players send the replays to: minerva@catreina.com If a player fails to send in their replays, the following may occur: - A. Said player will be immediately dismissed from that current Minerva tournament - B. If said player was a winner of a prize, they may possibly be forfeiting the prize to the next runner up who did send in their replays. + Show Spoiler [Legal bit of the rules] +
* By signing up for The Minvera Tournament you agree to all the rules set forth by the Minerva Staff. You also agree to the Release and limitation of liability waiver. Further more you understand that if you did not read the rules, that is no excuse for not knowing them and not following them.
* You agree that you are at least 18 years of age when you sign up for this tournament or that you are 16 years of age and have your parent's permission to participate in the tournament. If you are a minor and you win a prize in the tournament or because of the tournament, you agree to have your parents pick it up. You also agree that you are a USA Citizen. In the case you win in the tournament and you are not a USA Citizen, you may forfeit your prizes - That depends on what sponsors say. Some sponsors may be willing to send prizes over seas, where as others won't.
* We reserve the right to refuse a player from playing in this tournament for any reason; Further more we reserve the right to disqualify a player from the tournament if they act ill mannered towards other players or towards our staff, or are suspected of cheating or any other reason deemed worthy by the admins of this tournament.
* Anyone found discriminating against someone else in the tournament based on age, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic background, country of origin, religious preferences, gender identity, or anything else determine by the law, will be disqualified and immediately dismissed from the current and all future Minerva tournaments. This is an English based server, and any statements that translate to rude statements or swearing or any other language that may be misunderstood by English speaking people to be rude will be asked to be changed or further action may be taken.
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Can I suggest you all spoiler any old information from the previous tournament on the original post? I haven't been following the thread (rules discussion doesn't particularly interest me, I have no complaints) so it's a bit confusing telling which information pertains to the last one or the new one.
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On August 29 2010 13:57 w_Ender_w wrote:
Can I suggest you all spoiler any old information from the previous tournament on the original post? I haven't been following the thread (rules discussion doesn't particularly interest me, I have no complaints) so it's a bit confusing telling which information pertains to the last one or the new one.
I plan to, just been a bit busy lately. Thanks for the feedback!
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Let me just chime in here a little.
I disagreed with the overturning of the ruling. I disagreed with one player being given a choice and the other player being denied that same choice.
I disagree with rules that are by their very nature unfair (read: disco == loss in rounds 1-7). Battle.net drops players at random. People are unscrupulous in general, and could use disco hacks to win. There is no clause about who was in the lead, who is better, who was worse off, etc. This leads to people being almost dead and the opponent disco'ing to lose?
On the flip side, we cannot judge every disco and drop that happens in a 512 player tournament. It is logistically improbable. This is why we have (in many tournaments) the "you get a win unless you allow your opponent to replay" situation. Player A discos, player B wins UNLESS player B allows a replay.
This brings us to another issue, forcing Player A to now allow a replay because Player B did so earlier. Giving one person the choice and then forcing the other to NOT have a choice is unfair. Its a CHOICE, not a requirement. Allowing one player to chose and force this throughout the series is bad: Player A discos, Player B allows a rematch. Player B discos and is losing, Player A is FORCED to allow a rematch. BAD. Even if Player B discos and is Winning, player A is forced to rematch?
This is why the ruling was "You win unless you allow a rematch" globally. There should be absolutely no chance for players to get different rulings during the tournament.
This is what I propose (and what I will stand by 100% from here on in, hosting or not):
During any round, if a player disconnects, he loses unless his opponent allows a replay. Exclusions would be as follows:
Game is < 7 minutes without rush/cheese (6pool)
Game is > 7 minutes and it is clear the disconnecting player would have won (or there was a rush/cheese in play). By clear, it must be without a doubt, 100% clear.
This way, a player disconnecting does not automatically lose if they disco'd when they had 3 cannons warping in at their opponents mineral line (and this does not guarantee the cheesed player lost either).
There is much more to talk about with regard to the rules and excessive legalese that is totally unnecessary for a small-time tournament such as Minerva.
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when will be the next tourney?
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can you release the replays that were submitted?
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On August 30 2010 05:50 Nexic wrote:
can you release the replays that were submitted?
I will try to get a replay pack out once my pc is back up...which should be sometime tomorrow. I hope you understand.
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EPT
