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On August 16 2010 16:22 thesighter wrote:
How much are you being paid by ESL? I hope you all are fired. It's people like you that are holding back western esports.
Where the fucking fuck would you ever get the idea that I am being paid. Do you actually think someone would pay anyone to swear and then say that their company "fucked up" and imply that they have no balls?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable. Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?" In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it. Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame.
They banned him at a very specific point in time, when he did not have enough PPs to justify it and had not done anything to justify receiving more. IdrA's comments since that time, that could or could not lead to PPs under the rules, are a result of ESL's unjust ban and can't ne used out of context to now justify a ban. To go back to sports analogies, its as if the ref randomly gave a player a red card for no reason, then the player verbally abused him for the incorrect decision, then the ref said something like "your right, i didnt have a reason to give you the card, but now, as a result of my incorrect call, i do have a reason to give you a card".
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Okay jesus christ I get that CrossRaven didn't take idras side on everything, but do we have to accuse everyone with a low post count of being a shill? First the BigT supporters and now CrossRaven, who isn't even really an ESL supporter >_>
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On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable. Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?" In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it. Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame.
The problem isn't what their rules state-the problem is their hypocrisy in banning him. They don't give him a ban for his BM until after they screw up and they made their decision based on faulty assumptions(that he didn't intend to finish the tourney, etc). It's clear that they were pissed off that he called them out for being an organization that doesn't pay out money in his earlier game and that the ESL's response was to immaturely ban him.
What's even worse is, after being called out on their decision, they simply stop posting rather than face what they did and fix it
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I think it's time for a $5000 dollar best of 5 to settle who's right here.
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On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue).
They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them?
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On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them?
What does it say about the person that who admits they're the worst rules and then defends them?
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On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them?
I don't think anyone is arguing that they did anything wrong legally-it's clear their rules were created vaguely enough to prevent anything like that. However, realistically, what they did was wrong considering it's clear they didn't simply ban him simply for BM, but rather because of their screw up, considering the timing of the ban.
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On August 16 2010 16:32 Rainmaker5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them? What does it say about the person that who admits they're the worst rules and then defends them?
CrossRaven is a troll if case you haven't noticed.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable. Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?" In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it. Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame.
Well lets assume that they are able to give penalty points retroactively. Now lets assume that every infraction Idra has done is added up and he has something like 9001 penalty points. Their rules state that the punishement for penalty points is:
In addition to penalty points, players and teams may be barred (also known as frozen, locked and barraged) if they have accumulated a certain amount of penalty points:
After obtaining 4 penalty points: 1 week barrage
After obtaining 9 penalty points: 2 weeks barrage
After obtaining 10 penalty points: 1 month barrage
So how is he able to be punished with a season ban? I don't see that as an available punishment anywhere in their rules. And also since he only has 4 penalty points, he should have a 1 week ban not a season long ban.
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On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them?
Clearly you haven't been keeping up. ESL announced their ban before the "bm" was made public. So its like NBA banning the athelete for no reason at all other than to cover up their own failures as an organisation. Then everybody starts to question the ban, but the 4 month old news comes to light and they go "Oh, well thats why he got banned", despite the fact that they didnt know about it before.
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On August 16 2010 16:33 thesighter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:32 Rainmaker5 wrote:On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them? What does it say about the person that who admits they're the worst rules and then defends them? CrossRaven is a troll if case you haven't noticed.
Eh, every time he talks he makes the tournament organizers look bad which is what I'm going for here.
And for the record I'd like to say they're pretty goddamn awful.
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On August 16 2010 16:32 Rainmaker5 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them? What does it say about the person that who admits they're the worst rules and then defends them?
That's a ridiculous argument. He's not defending the rules, he's simply stating that breaking rules you agreed to can lead to consequences. It doesn't matter if rules are bad, when you've agreed to them you've agreed to them.
Edit: I'd like to make clear that I don't agree with ESL at all here. IdrA shuoldn't be 100% excused but he definitely shouldn't be getting penalties he doesn't deserve, or be punished because an organizer doesn't like him. Like unprofessional from the ESL crew.
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On August 16 2010 16:34 naonao wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable. Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?" In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it. Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame. Well lets assume that they are able to give penalty points retroactively. Now lets assume that every infraction Idra has done is added up and he has something like 9001 penalty points. Their rules state that the punishement for penalty points is: Show nested quote +In addition to penalty points, players and teams may be barred (also known as frozen, locked and barraged) if they have accumulated a certain amount of penalty points:
After obtaining 4 penalty points: 1 week barrage
After obtaining 9 penalty points: 2 weeks barrage
After obtaining 10 penalty points: 1 month barrage So how is he able to be punished with a season ban? I don't see that as an available punishment anywhere in their rules. And also since he only has 4 penalty points, he should have a 1 week ban not a season long ban. Well I think they later said it was actually a 1 week ban not a season ban or something. It wasn't explained and there was no clarification after.
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So how is he able to be punished with a season ban? I don't see that as an available punishment anywhere in their rules. And also since he only has 4 penalty points, he should have a 1 week ban not a season long ban.
they've already changed it to a 1week ban. the admins clearly didn't confer with each other and the first guy irrationally gave the season ban
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On August 16 2010 16:31 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:25 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue). They are stupid and non stupid. It covers their ass for shit like this, legally anyways. You think an athlete can go and say that the NBA is fucking stupid 4 months ago for an interview and then have it show up in print later and just be like "well i said that 4 months ago, so you can't really punish me". The way those rules are worded covers after the fact cases. Idra agreed to the rules, so if you say they are the worst rules ever, what does it say about the person who agreed to them?
No...just no.
Their rules, however vague, are very clear on the fact that a player must have 4 penalty points to be banned for a week. IdrA didn't have 4 penalty points and he was banned for one week. Once ESL stopped operating withing the rules they and the players agreed to operate under, players have no reason to continuing following said rules. In other words, once you have been banned for no reason, it becomes clear that following the rules will not stop you from being banned.
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On August 16 2010 16:29 Guilt wrote:
The problem isn't what their rules state-the problem is their hypocrisy in banning him. They don't give him a ban for his BM until after they screw up and they made their decision based on faulty assumptions(that he didn't intend to finish the tourney, etc). It's clear that they were pissed off that he called them out for being an organization that doesn't pay out money in his earlier game and that the ESL's response was to immaturely ban him.
What's even worse is, after being called out on their decision, they simply stop posting rather than face what they did and fix it
I agree with everything you said really. When my friend showed me all this, I was basically like "idra is BM all the time, why is everyone so surprised that he got banned". Then you read it all and see the ESL admin posts and it's like "that's really the best you can come up with guys?" If I was the ESL my next goal would be to A) stop G2Wolf or whatever his name is from posting on here and making things worse and B) work it out with idra since he's more of a draw than a problem since the damage has already been done. Hell,I'd be interested to see if he wins the damn thing and if he can control himself after all this, wouldn't you?
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There was no official post saying they changed it, all of a sudden it's just "2+2=4 = week ban"
What on earth happened to the seasonal ban then? I even went back to page 33 or whatever to make sure they didn't edit out there, which is something I expected.
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On August 16 2010 16:38 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:29 Guilt wrote:
The problem isn't what their rules state-the problem is their hypocrisy in banning him. They don't give him a ban for his BM until after they screw up and they made their decision based on faulty assumptions(that he didn't intend to finish the tourney, etc). It's clear that they were pissed off that he called them out for being an organization that doesn't pay out money in his earlier game and that the ESL's response was to immaturely ban him.
What's even worse is, after being called out on their decision, they simply stop posting rather than face what they did and fix it I agree with everything you said really. When my friend showed me all this, I was basically like "idra is BM all the time, why is everyone so surprised that he got banned". Then you read it all and see the ESL admin posts and it's like "that's really the best you can come up with guys?" If I was the ESL my next goal would be to A) stop G2Wolf or whatever his name is from posting on here and making things worse and B) work it out with idra since he's more of a draw than a problem since the damage has already been done. Hell,I'd be interested to see if he wins the damn thing and if he can control himself after all this, wouldn't you?
Nope, not watching the ESL anymore, especially if BigT is the only streamer.
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On August 16 2010 16:40 Faxmachine wrote:
There was no official post saying they changed it, all of a sudden it's just "2+2=4 = week ban"
What on earth happened to the seasonal ban then? I even went back to page 33 or whatever to make sure they didn't edit out there, which is something I expected.
I'm pretty sure by "season" they mean the rest of the IEM qualifiers... which end in a week.
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EPT
