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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true
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On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
I believe the number of IdrA supporters outweighs the number of ESL supporters. Too bad us IdrA supports can't really do anything but watch from the shadows and speculate.
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On August 16 2010 16:11 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better.
Quit trolling. You know Idra didn't do anything to deserve the ban.
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On August 16 2010 16:11 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better.
Retaliating because they owe him money for a tourney several months ago and they fucked up the brackets and tack on 2 random penalty points just to get him banned?
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On August 16 2010 16:11 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better. A tournament organizer has an obligation to show professionalism at all times though. How can a tournament organizer enforce rules they do not follow?
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On August 16 2010 16:05 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:01 dopplex wrote:On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing? At least once, and probably more - http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090913&content_id=6935634&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyyBaseball is really not the best comparable - players and managers get tossed all the time for arguing. The biggest issue I'm seeing here is the inconsistency on ESL's part. They have rules which penalize unsportsmanlike conduct? Wonderful. These rules aren't consistently applied until a confrontation sparked by their own administrative mistake? Not so wonderful. (Because, really... had they been consistently applied Idra would have drawn a ban well before now.) Whatever the reality of the situation, the appearance is that the ESL's actions are stemming from the emotional reaction of its administrators rather than from the role it should have as an impartial arbiter and organizer. ESL Admins - you guys are dealing with a lot right now, but you really need to take a step back, sleep on it, and then reevaluate this. Is it really in the ESL's long term best interests to not appear credibly impartial? Were there perhaps extenuating circumstances that in this case could step back the ban? Might it be a better idea in the future to enforce bad manners rules aggressively and publicly against all players so that when something like this happens there is no question about impartiality? Tossed, yes. But I mis-worded that post. How many times do you see him get BANNED for a season for swearing at an umpire?
I think the closer analog here is tossing, though (at least, since they backed off the talk of a season ban and started talking about a week ban instead). The fact is that arguing/insulting the admins can in fact have negative repurcussions (especially in baseball, where the umps screw up obvious strike zone calls all the time but will still toss anyone very quickly for complaining about strike zone calls).
That said, in this case I agree that it wasn't really a justifiable enforcement of the rules. I think that in general, it's perfectly legitimate to toss or even short term ban players for that sort of thing - provided the criteria for it happening are clear ahead of time and are evenly enforced for everyone. In this case, for the reasons mentioned, it was clearly the wrong move.
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On August 16 2010 16:04 Faxmachine wrote:
Sqq, I don't mean to point you out, but if Idra apparently said that the only reason he didn't allow BigT in for the first match was due to Idra not wanting any lag at all and not for the chat between the two of them, what is the snowball effect? He got 2 penalty points from that, and that's fine.
Just wanted to get clarification >.>
thats true, i didnt allow him because i didnt want it to be casted. and while i really feel that all tournaments should be casting off replays, not live, the penalty points from that are justified.
the problem here is that they disqualified me solely because of their own incompetence and then started lying after they were callled on it.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
For a minute, I thought you were right. But the thing is; the MSN chat was not known to them at the time of the ban, additionally it was a private conversation not broadcast over the internet or some other medium. He insulted ESL staff in this thread, true, but he was allowed to play games after those comments, receiving no PPs for them.Other insults from IdrA later in this thread occurred after the ban was announced. So actually, if this were a legal thing they would be pretty boned imo.
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On August 16 2010 16:11 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better.
No but if the ref (I'm going to use football as an example here) told the quarterback who just threw a 100 yard touchdown that it didn't count because they forgot to start the clock, the ref deserves to get called a FUCKING IDIOT.
At least that's what I would say, and the crowd will still probably get very mad.
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On August 16 2010 16:11 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:08 roofs wrote:
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
And? That has what to do with him calling them a joke? Retaliating doesn't get you off the hook in sports now does it? Usually it's punished worse, because you should know better.
no, but it's understandable why he'd be pissed.
1. esl admins screwed up with the strifecro-jobless debacle.
2. idra thought he was done his matches since he got into top 4 (therefore qualifying), didn't want to play anymore since he had to leave for another tourney
3. esl admin dq'ed him because of above reason (cause they thought he didnt want to play), and insulted him in the same post. didnt tell him at all about the whole strifecro-jobless thing and him having to replay matches.
Never said anything about that means he should be let off the hook.
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On August 16 2010 16:16 Boonesbane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney. For a minute, I thought you were right. But the thing is; the MSN chat was not known to them at the time of the ban, additionally it was a private conversation not broadcast over the internet or some other medium. He insulted ESL staff in this thread, true, but he was allowed to paly games after those comments, receiving no PPs for them.Other insults from IdrA later in this thread occured after the ban was announced. So actually, if this were a legal thing they would be pretty boned imo.
LS told them as soon as he saw that they were going to try to w.o / dq IdrA and said it on BigT's stream.
he rushed to msn to tell Idra, but idra said he was eating D:
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On August 16 2010 16:04 Faxmachine wrote:
Sqq, I don't mean to point you out, but if Idra apparently said that the only reason he didn't allow BigT in for the first match was due to Idra not wanting any lag at all and not for the chat between the two of them, what is the snowball effect? He got 2 penalty points from that, and that's fine.
Just wanted to get clarification >.>
Thats fine mate, forums are for discussion and opinions. I find the whole way he went about it with having so many casters to be moronic. He might not have played a part in the direct banning, but he sure as hell made a snowballing effect on both the forums, the stream, irc and so on by saying what he said. He might have told people he was only joking, but when you have 3000 viewers there is bound to be alot of people who will missunderstand what is being said, and it does not help the view on IdrA or the ESL at all when random shit like that is spouted on what was probably the biggest stream during the day. Totally unprofessional.
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On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true
Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable.
Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?"
In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it.
Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame.
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And once the facts come out suddenly esl admins have to go to bed and hide from the big scary TL forum
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On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable. Look, I'm not defending the ESL here, just from a rules perspective they got the guy(though that the ESL can't explain this as well as I can should be distressing to them). Idra being the tool that he is always pisses people off, and they've probably had it. For all the people who say that it's in the best interest of the ESL to let him play, I would say it's a much better benefit to not risk having other players quit because idrA gets away with his bullshit all the time. Right now, if I was playing I'd be going "if idrA comes back can i say you guys are all fucking idiots and start insulting everyone too? Cause he got away with it, why can't I?" In a real sport you'd never be able to say the guys in charge are fucking idiots, never, you'd get fined and suspended and if you kept doing it, you'd get banned. Idra keeps doing it. Now, as for the ESL, they fucked up and should just say they fucked up and then go "idrA is still banned". A real league with some balls would do that and I'd respect them for doing it, but doing all this shit after the fact is going to be a PR disaster(which I'm sure they can't handle since they are probably viewer driven with their advertising dollars) and since the average internet user is a moron they will side with idrA on this even though everyone involved is to blame.
How much are you being paid by ESL? I hope you all are fired. It's people like you that are holding back western esports.
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On August 16 2010 16:21 FatkiddsLag wrote:
And once the facts come out suddenly esl admins have to go to bed and hide from the big scary TL forum
TLFIGHTING!
On a serious note, I think that it's safe to say that TL has a...uh..bit of influence in the E-Sports community.
And to be honest, I don't think they have that good reputation around here right now ^^
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Why does IdrA even care about ESL considering he said they haven't paid him from a tourney win 7 months ago?
Would have washed my hands of this bullshit long ago if I was him. It's not like there's any shortage of tournaments around not to mention the guy lives in korea.
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On August 16 2010 16:20 CrossRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:11 Guilt wrote:
I don't believe either of those comments weren't known to the ESL admins at the time of the ban, considering the MSN chat and the "joke" comment were posted afterwards. And considering what they're doing, IdrA's comments are completely true Yes, but they are known now, and nowhere in the rules does it say when and where these things can be said to be punishable.
So you're saying they're the worst rules ever created then? Allow idra to continue to play and after the qualifiers when he's about to make it to top 3 of the end of the series give him his week long ban then.
The rest of your post has been previously addressed. The comments which seem so insulting from Idra occurred after the fact when they said a ban would be instated (sans the private MSN convo with last shadow, which is a nonissue).
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EPT
