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+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 16:00 Guilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:59 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:54 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:52 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:47 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:45 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing? My guess is A-Rod doesnt personally insult the umpire, thus does not deserve a kick, A-Rod also has a great coaching staff behind him which does a lot of the coercing for him, I dont watch baseball often, but ive seen people get kicked for swearing into the air, hell Tim Duncan got ejected for laughing in an NBA game. Yes, but has he been BANNED from baseball for a season because of it? Or just penalized in some way. (And I beg to differ on the personally insult the umpire, he's thrown a few words around XD). are you really trying to compare the actions of the MLB, the most successful sport in America, to SC2, a niche hobby? I fail to see the difference in the argument regarding personal aggression towards the referee (in this case, admin.) remember, I wasn't the one to start the sports analogies. Simply proving a point, WHATEVER people are passionate about, if you make a personal mistake that determines the outcome be prepared for a bit of backlash. There are monetary reasons, a lot of them, for not banning A-Rod, there is no monetary sacrifice for banning IdrA, does this make sense now why you shouldnt compare the officiating actions of a niche basement hobby to the officiating of a prestigious international competition. We were comparing how sports players are able to take a loss, not about how the repercussions for personally insulting an admin are, it wasnt until you put out a strawman argument that we had this tangent of handling officiating. If you don't think they're going to lose viewers(and therefore money) by excluding IdrA, then you're just as stupid as the ESL admins
Thanks for the personal insult, you're a real shiny star in the esports community, btw if you think a company sponsored by Intel is worried about one whiny teenager, you are the one who is truly intelligent deficient
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On August 16 2010 15:59 BigT wrote:Hmm.. maybe 30 seconds after i said it i said i was just kidding lol. Id be willing to bet that most people are much for mad about it than idra himself, infact i dont think hes mad at all cause he knew i was just kidding and being facetious 
Regardless of intent, people took it as BM.
Still, i think the whole BiggerT thing was all in good fun. Chill was just being Chill.
IMO you should think of some way to get him back=0P
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On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing?
At least once, and probably more - http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090913&content_id=6935634&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy
Baseball is really not the best comparable - players and managers get tossed all the time for arguing.
The biggest issue I'm seeing here is the inconsistency on ESL's part. They have rules which penalize unsportsmanlike conduct? Wonderful. These rules aren't consistently applied until a confrontation sparked by their own administrative mistake? Not so wonderful. (Because, really... had they been consistently applied Idra would have drawn a ban well before now.)
Whatever the reality of the situation, the appearance is that the ESL's actions are stemming from the emotional reaction of its administrators rather than from the role it should have as an impartial arbiter and organizer.
ESL Admins - you guys are dealing with a lot right now, but you really need to take a step back, sleep on it, and then reevaluate this. Is it really in the ESL's long term best interests to not appear credibly impartial? Were there perhaps extenuating circumstances that in this case could step back the ban? Might it be a better idea in the future to enforce bad manners rules aggressively and publicly against all players so that when something like this happens there is no question about impartiality?
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On August 16 2010 16:00 Sqq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:55 BigT wrote:On August 16 2010 15:53 Sqq wrote:On August 16 2010 15:49 BigT wrote:On August 16 2010 15:39 XiaN wrote:
Just to recap the last 15 hours
1.) IdrA refused to let BigT cast his first game after BigT bm'ing IdrA in the ingame chat
2.) HuK forced official gg.net casters to leave his game vs. MorroW because of lag and remade a game with only BigT as caster
3.) After that gg.net refused to let BigT cast the finals of the the EU and US qualifiers and disallowed him to cast the Top8 of the Gosucup. They thought BigT said HuK and MorroW to only let him cast their games ( which is def. not true )
4.) Either StrifeCro or Jobless cheated an caused 2 rounds of the tournament to be replayed
5.) Chill flaming BigT in his BiggerT stream
6.) The whole IdrA vs. ESL thing
Man .. there are golden days to come :D Why is Big T in so many of those #s hahaha xD Like i said, i wasn't trying to "bm" idra, i was being extremely facetious the entire time and i apologize if i offended anyone who thought otherwise. And the gg.net gamers were not allowed to cast because of lag issues, nothing personal against them! <3 you guys :D Hopefully they didn't "ban" me from casting the other rounds because they thought it was something personal D: And yeah about that biggert thing. What was up with that? I'm all for a good joke... but isnt that taking it a little too far? I mean I was told he was actually telling people to spam and troll me.... D: You are starting to do my tits in. If it was facetious or not, you still did it and having so many streamers today you should as a caster stop and think, "Will everyone understand this?". Extremely unproffessional from your part, and you are one of the reasons why this has snowballed out of proportion. But i explicitly stated multiple times "i was just kidding". Shouldn't people understand that? xD On August 16 2010 15:53 taLbuk wrote:
Yeah BiggerT was hilarious, not quite over the line, also for the hours I was watching him I never saw him tell people to spam or troll you.
Ahh ok, maybe i was misinformed ^^* I wish i could have seen it :D Take a step back and revise how your comments affected all of this. You have a certain responsibility when you cast mainstream matches. Its easy to come here and explain after that it was all a joke, but it snowballed so badly, and as a caster you should known this ? You are either very incompetent at casting, or extremely naive. You are also being sponsored ? I guess those guys are loving the attention you're getting off this, so you might not be such a tool after all.
I'm explaining myself after... i explicitly said during my cast that i was kidding WHILE i was talking with him. he even said it didnt effect anything...
On August 16 2010 15:58 Boonesbane wrote:
I'd just like to point out again that idrA has specifically said disallowing bigT's streaming had nothing to do with their chat. He said he didn't want any caster because of lag, and would have acted the same way if bigT hadn't messaged him. Lets get back on track people.
So calm down man, no need to insult me!
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I think everybody ends up being rude to IdrA just because of the fact that he is bm at times
fucking ridiculous -_-
It's clearly not IdrA's fault and a problem with the management of the tournament. Sad when organizers try to pin the blame on players...
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On August 16 2010 16:01 CaptnIgnit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:59 BigT wrote:Hmm.. maybe 30 seconds after i said it i said i was just kidding lol. Id be willing to bet that most people are much for mad about it than idra himself, infact i dont think hes mad at all cause he knew i was just kidding and being facetious Regardless of intent, people took it as BM. Still, i think the whole BiggerT thing was all in good fun. Chill was just being Chill. IMO you should think of some way to get him back=0P
Well, just not sure what i did to deserve it with all the people to pick from.
And thats a good idea!
-diabolically scheming-
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On August 16 2010 16:01 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 16:00 Guilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:59 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:54 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:52 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:47 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:45 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing? My guess is A-Rod doesnt personally insult the umpire, thus does not deserve a kick, A-Rod also has a great coaching staff behind him which does a lot of the coercing for him, I dont watch baseball often, but ive seen people get kicked for swearing into the air, hell Tim Duncan got ejected for laughing in an NBA game. Yes, but has he been BANNED from baseball for a season because of it? Or just penalized in some way. (And I beg to differ on the personally insult the umpire, he's thrown a few words around XD). are you really trying to compare the actions of the MLB, the most successful sport in America, to SC2, a niche hobby? I fail to see the difference in the argument regarding personal aggression towards the referee (in this case, admin.) remember, I wasn't the one to start the sports analogies. Simply proving a point, WHATEVER people are passionate about, if you make a personal mistake that determines the outcome be prepared for a bit of backlash. There are monetary reasons, a lot of them, for not banning A-Rod, there is no monetary sacrifice for banning IdrA, does this make sense now why you shouldnt compare the officiating actions of a niche basement hobby to the officiating of a prestigious international competition. We were comparing how sports players are able to take a loss, not about how the repercussions for personally insulting an admin are, it wasnt until you put out a strawman argument that we had this tangent of handling officiating. If you don't think they're going to lose viewers(and therefore money) by excluding IdrA, then you're just as stupid as the ESL admins Thanks for the personal insult, you're a real shiny star in the esports community, btw if you think a company sponsored by Intel is worried about one whiny teenager, you are the one who is truly intelligent deficient
When that "whiny teenager" is probably the most famous starcraft 2 player outside of Korea, then yes, I do think they'd be worried.
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Sqq, I don't mean to point you out, but if Idra apparently said that the only reason he didn't allow BigT in for the first match was due to Idra not wanting any lag at all and not for the chat between the two of them, what is the snowball effect? He got 2 penalty points from that, and that's fine.
Just wanted to get clarification >.>
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On August 16 2010 16:01 dopplex wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing? At least once, and probably more - http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090913&content_id=6935634&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyyBaseball is really not the best comparable - players and managers get tossed all the time for arguing. The biggest issue I'm seeing here is the inconsistency on ESL's part. They have rules which penalize unsportsmanlike conduct? Wonderful. These rules aren't consistently applied until a confrontation sparked by their own administrative mistake? Not so wonderful. (Because, really... had they been consistently applied Idra would have drawn a ban well before now.) Whatever the reality of the situation, the appearance is that the ESL's actions are stemming from the emotional reaction of its administrators rather than from the role it should have as an impartial arbiter and organizer. ESL Admins - you guys are dealing with a lot right now, but you really need to take a step back, sleep on it, and then reevaluate this. Is it really in the ESL's long term best interests to not appear credibly impartial? Were there perhaps extenuating circumstances that in this case could step back the ban? Might it be a better idea in the future to enforce bad manners rules aggressively and publicly against all players so that when something like this happens there is no question about impartiality?
Tossed, yes. But I mis-worded that post. How many times do you see him get BANNED for a season for swearing at an umpire?
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Only because people like you follow his path of personally insulting random strangers to downplay other peoples accomplishments and subtly upscale your own.
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"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
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On August 16 2010 16:04 Guilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:01 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 16:00 Guilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:59 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:54 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:52 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:47 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:45 Holcan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 16 2010 15:41 .ImpacT. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:40 Holcan wrote:On August 16 2010 15:34 Yotsuba wrote:On August 16 2010 15:28 Precipice wrote:
The difference between esports and real sports, is people in real sports are taller, and can actually win or lose with dignity and manners. Have you ever seen real sports? People swear ALL the time on the field. They tell refs "f*ck off", etc a lot, and usually it's a technical foul, yellow card, etc. Sports are vicious, and if a league ever made an announcement that they were banning a player for "bad manners", he better damn well be acting way over the top. Sure, IdrA BMs, but if he were in physical sports, he wouldn't even be known for that. However, I seem to notice "real" sports leagues being a touch more on the ball. Don't see very many do-overs there. Well in basketball, and most other sports, the referee holds his own right to eject players at his own discretion, even fans can be ejected for foul behavior. I'd also like to not that the players often swear, but they swear into the air, and not directly at the administrators, referees, and umpires, and even indirect actions can be punished severely. Fines are often handed out if they publicly insult the officiating, its called professionalism. So fine him (give him a slap on the wrist, make a public statement about "we will not tolerate BM") but how often do you see A-Rod (Top American baseball player for those unaware.) get kicked out for swearing? My guess is A-Rod doesnt personally insult the umpire, thus does not deserve a kick, A-Rod also has a great coaching staff behind him which does a lot of the coercing for him, I dont watch baseball often, but ive seen people get kicked for swearing into the air, hell Tim Duncan got ejected for laughing in an NBA game. Yes, but has he been BANNED from baseball for a season because of it? Or just penalized in some way. (And I beg to differ on the personally insult the umpire, he's thrown a few words around XD). are you really trying to compare the actions of the MLB, the most successful sport in America, to SC2, a niche hobby? I fail to see the difference in the argument regarding personal aggression towards the referee (in this case, admin.) remember, I wasn't the one to start the sports analogies. Simply proving a point, WHATEVER people are passionate about, if you make a personal mistake that determines the outcome be prepared for a bit of backlash. There are monetary reasons, a lot of them, for not banning A-Rod, there is no monetary sacrifice for banning IdrA, does this make sense now why you shouldnt compare the officiating actions of a niche basement hobby to the officiating of a prestigious international competition. We were comparing how sports players are able to take a loss, not about how the repercussions for personally insulting an admin are, it wasnt until you put out a strawman argument that we had this tangent of handling officiating. If you don't think they're going to lose viewers(and therefore money) by excluding IdrA, then you're just as stupid as the ESL admins Thanks for the personal insult, you're a real shiny star in the esports community, btw if you think a company sponsored by Intel is worried about one whiny teenager, you are the one who is truly intelligent deficient When that "whiny teenager" is probably the most famous starcraft 2 player outside of Korea, then yes, I do think they'd be worried. Plus the anger of the biggest starcraft website in the galaxy is also not good.
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ESL are a fucking disgrace.
You don't make an awful mistake then retrospectively ban one of players involved; just to make the decision easier!
We need to take this shit tournament off our tournament tracker until they start acting with some decency.
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I'm dying to know where the extra 2 points came from.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke.
I would say that's about fair... yes let's go with that.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
funny thing is that ESL-beef called IdrA a joke initially... (previously in this thread)
they don't get reprimanded, cause they're admins.
IdrA was gm before this whole shitstorm.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
You bring up a great point but you do have to remember that Idra is owed prize money by them in the first place, which I'd assume is a reason for him being so heated at them to begin with. Then he gets contacted that he has to replay 2 rounds, and he agreed to do that and said that is when he called them fucking idiots.
Still waiting to see where those 2 extra penalty points came from.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
First post....hmmm?
On August 16 2010 16:09 taLbuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney. You bring up a great point but you do have to remember that Idra is owed prize money by them in the first place, which I'd assume is a reason for him being so heated at them to begin with. Then he gets contacted that he has to replay 2 rounds, and he agreed to do that and said that is when he called them fucking idiots.
And I'd be ripped shit if I had to replay two rounds. He had EVERY right to be angry.
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On August 16 2010 16:05 CrossRaven wrote:
"Insults via IRC, ICQ, e-mail or other media may be penalized, providing a connection to the ESL is given and provable."
From the MSN chat that was pasted, he called them "fucking idiots", and on here he's called them a joke. I would say that is 2 insults and there is his ban, even if he didn't do anything before he has earned one now. If this were a legal thing, they'd have so many ways to nail idrA on this, but since it's a PR thing they should really just work it out, because this beyond stupid for a fucking computer game tourney.
Cause they fucked up, which one would expect ANYONE to insult them for.
The second of which is after they already banned him.
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I did my first post in this thread too!
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EPT
