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On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department
i agree, i think the roach change was unnecessary because roaches are the best counter to terran mech. im pretty sure its gonna be addressed in next patches
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On May 24 2010 22:38 Spidinko wrote:
TLO vs Sen would look very differently if they played whole series all over again. G1 TLO saw for the first time counter against his strategy. That counter imo worked because they were next to each other. OL drop would hardly to do that much damage if Sen would have had to move his OLs across the map w/o OL speed with vikings flying all over the map. Didn't see the G2, though.
My point is that it's just 2 games and TLO was caught of guard. Still, I expect the games to be pretty even. I find it unlikely for Sen to rape TLO.
I never even said that sen would be a favourite if they rematched.
But I do think that sen had the right idea abusing the immobility of Terran. Seems to be the only way that TLO can be beaten in this matchup.
Anyways, hoping for great matches in sen vs demuslim and TLO vs the winner of that.
TLO already made like 880$ if my calculations are right just by making the finals, that's pretty awesome 
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On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department
Its like PredY said, who's undoubtly really good Terran in Broodwar. You cannot take on a Terran Mech army straight up as Zerg. Its designed to be like that. Thats why Zerg units are cheaper and faster produced. You need to send wave after wave, OR don't let him get that critical mass. And no, its not impossible to tear up terrans before hitting the already named critical mass.
Also I think the roaches are fucked up and too weak right now-_-;
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On May 24 2010 22:43 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department i agree, i think the roach change was unnecessary because roaches are the best counter to terran mech. im pretty sure its gonna be addressed in next patches
damn it. i was hoping ud disagree and give me some interesting ideas on how to beat terran mech ;;;;
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I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. I was just getting a feeling that many people think Sen is much better than TLO and would 2-0 him again if they faced each other. Which is far from truth. They are both amazing players and neither is much ahead.
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On May 24 2010 22:49 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department Its like PredY said, who's undoubtly really good Terran in Broodwar. You cannot take on a Terran Mech army straight up as Zerg. Its designed to be like that. Thats why Zerg units are cheaper and faster produced. You need to send wave after wave into sieged tanks, OR don't let him get that critical mass. And no, its not impossible to tear up terrans before hitting the already named critical mass. Also I think the roaches are fucked up and too weak right now-_-;
Fixed xD
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On May 24 2010 22:55 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:49 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department Its like PredY said, who's undoubtly really good Terran in Broodwar. You cannot take on a Terran Mech army straight up as Zerg. Its designed to be like that. Thats why Zerg units are cheaper and faster produced. You need to send wave after wave into sieged tanks, OR don't let him get that critical mass. And no, its not impossible to tear up terrans before hitting the already named critical mass. Also I think the roaches are fucked up and too weak right now-_-; Fixed xD
"Romania" ...
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United States22883 Posts
On May 24 2010 22:51 Spidinko wrote: I was just getting a feeling that many people think Sen is much better than TLO and would 2-0 him again if they faced each other.
Well... Bnet 2.0 will be the decider of that. 
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On May 24 2010 22:51 Spidinko wrote:
I wasn't addressing anyone in particular. I was just getting a feeling that many people think Sen is much better than TLO and would 2-0 him again if they faced each other. Which is far from truth. They are both amazing players and neither is much ahead.
mh no I think you're mistaken I dont think anyone even hinted at Sen being much better than TLO.
Both are just amazing indeed.
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so any idea when demu vs sen is reschedule fro?
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On May 24 2010 22:49 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:43 PredY wrote:On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department i agree, i think the roach change was unnecessary because roaches are the best counter to terran mech. im pretty sure its gonna be addressed in next patches damn it. i was hoping ud disagree and give me some interesting ideas on how to beat terran mech ;;;;
well i think the general idea would be like this, get a spine crawler to prevent marine/hellion rush, then mutas to counter the air and harass a bit, get the 3rd up. i think massing roaches with upgrades and burrow is a good idea, especially when T doesnt get fast raven.
then my advice would be fight ONLY ON the creep and pick YOUR spot to attack with a good surround. start nydusing as soon as you get your 3rd up and try to prevent T from getting his 3rd if possible. then my ultimate unit combo would be roach/ling/(bling to blow up the hellions)/muta
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On May 24 2010 22:55 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:55 cyclone25 wrote:On May 24 2010 22:49 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department Its like PredY said, who's undoubtly really good Terran in Broodwar. You cannot take on a Terran Mech army straight up as Zerg. Its designed to be like that. Thats why Zerg units are cheaper and faster produced. You need to send wave after wave into sieged tanks, OR don't let him get that critical mass. And no, its not impossible to tear up terrans before hitting the already named critical mass. Also I think the roaches are fucked up and too weak right now-_-; Fixed xD "Romania" ...
What do you mean by that? What if I'm from Romania? lol ...
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Loner vs Macsed on stream
Not sure what that is tbh... its not a semifinal so..
looks like the game of the highlight movie with masstank + marine vs phoenix + warpgate army and loner winning, not sure though. Seems like an old game. Yup.. its that game.
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On May 24 2010 22:21 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:21 frumplejoon wrote:
that was a brutal whipping by TLO, hope they finish his series w/sen, would like to see how he handles the mech SEn is up by 2 games.. and I think SEn is better than Freedom in every aspect. Micro, Macro, Multitasking and overall gameplay / army composition.
You could be right, but even Sen had trouble with mech on Kulas Ravine. It's simply a very, very hard build to beat as Zerg, simply because Zerg does not have nearly the same options as it did in BW (no plague, no dark swarm, no stacked mutas, no scourge), whereas Terran has far more options than it ever did in BW (thors, vikings, banshees, etc.) Mech is stronger than it was; that's what everybody is noticing after the initial "zomg marauder ball" syndrome wore off.
Hell, mech is strong even vs. Protoss, and it's already become the standard in TvT.
Tester and Artosis were complaining about Terran imba a while ago. I guess now they have more evidence that Terran truly is the strongest race. And to think that Blizzard just went ahead and buffed Terran three times in a row (even I thought that was excessive).
Nevertheless, well-played by TLO. A lesser player would still have crumbled, but his mech play is incredibly polished and solid.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 24 2010 23:09 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:55 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:55 cyclone25 wrote:On May 24 2010 22:49 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:34 Sfydjklm wrote:On May 24 2010 22:27 PredY wrote:
it's the same as in bw, you can't beat mech straight up, you need to harass, drop, nydus, burrowed roaches, expand and shit yea but the issue is that no matter how much of a macro advantage u get u will never ever be able to take the terran head on. the terran mech mix hard counters ALL zerg army compositions. and also terran going mech still has better harassment tools then zerg does. So it's like you lose in the macro army composition department and you lose in harassment department Its like PredY said, who's undoubtly really good Terran in Broodwar. You cannot take on a Terran Mech army straight up as Zerg. Its designed to be like that. Thats why Zerg units are cheaper and faster produced. You need to send wave after wave into sieged tanks, OR don't let him get that critical mass. And no, its not impossible to tear up terrans before hitting the already named critical mass. Also I think the roaches are fucked up and too weak right now-_-; Fixed xD "Romania" ... What do you mean by that? What if I'm from Romania? lol ...
It's a forum specific meme about romanians not understanding sarcasm. There was a thread once where like 3 romanian posters in a row didn't get a sarcastic post.... and well, you know how the internet is ;p
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Having said that, I've still yet to see a Zerg player going the mass baneling (maybe with mass overlord drop) strategy that Day9 recommended in his daily. Combined with burrowed roaches and mutalisks, it might be possible to beat mech mid-game...
But it seems that a lot of the power in mech comes up fairly early in the amount of harass Terran is able to do, which banelings do not address. One of its strongest points lies in its ability to threaten with BOTH thorships and banshees, which have significantly different early game counters. Mass queens or quick hydras can deal with banshees, but they cannot deal with thors. Roaches and speedlings can deal with thors, but they cannot deal with banshees. Combined with the threat of hellions and tank drops, the build's versatility requires the Zerg to account for 4-5 threats simultaneously.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 25 2010 00:10 Azarkon wrote:
Having said that, I've still yet to see a Zerg player going the mass baneling (maybe with mass overlord drop) strategy that Day9 recommended in his daily. Combined with burrowed roaches and mutalisks, it might be possible to beat mech mid-game...
But it seems that a lot of the power in mech comes up fairly early in the amount of harass Terran is able to do, which banelings do not address. One of its strongest points lies in its ability to threaten with BOTH thorships and banshees, which have significantly different early game counters. Mass queens or quick hydras can deal with banshees, but they cannot deal with thors. Roaches and speedlings can deal with thors, but they cannot deal with banshees. Combined with the threat of hellions and tank drops, the build's versatility requires the Zerg to account for 4-5 threats simultaneously.
Don't forget preigniter hellions. o.o
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On May 24 2010 23:53 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 22:21 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:21 frumplejoon wrote:
that was a brutal whipping by TLO, hope they finish his series w/sen, would like to see how he handles the mech SEn is up by 2 games.. and I think SEn is better than Freedom in every aspect. Micro, Macro, Multitasking and overall gameplay / army composition. You could be right, but even Sen had trouble with mech on Kulas Ravine. It's simply a very, very hard build to beat as Zerg, simply because Zerg does not have nearly the same options as it did in BW (no plague, no dark swarm, no stacked mutas, no scourge), whereas Terran has far more options than it ever did in BW (thors, vikings, banshees, etc.) Mech is stronger than it was; that's what everybody is noticing after the initial "zomg marauder ball" syndrome wore off.
its more about what terrans gained than what zerg has lost, its just way too easy for t to absolutely nullify most of what zerg can do. 3 thors and mutas are worthless. blue hellions and lings are worthless. tanks and hydras are worthless. so you're left with a single unit before hive tech and its not like its a counter, its just the only thing that doesnt fail absolutely.
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On May 25 2010 00:26 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 23:53 Azarkon wrote:On May 24 2010 22:21 G.s)NarutO wrote:On May 24 2010 22:21 frumplejoon wrote:
that was a brutal whipping by TLO, hope they finish his series w/sen, would like to see how he handles the mech SEn is up by 2 games.. and I think SEn is better than Freedom in every aspect. Micro, Macro, Multitasking and overall gameplay / army composition. You could be right, but even Sen had trouble with mech on Kulas Ravine. It's simply a very, very hard build to beat as Zerg, simply because Zerg does not have nearly the same options as it did in BW (no plague, no dark swarm, no stacked mutas, no scourge), whereas Terran has far more options than it ever did in BW (thors, vikings, banshees, etc.) Mech is stronger than it was; that's what everybody is noticing after the initial "zomg marauder ball" syndrome wore off. its more about what terrans gained than what zerg has lost, its just way too easy for t to absolutely nullify most of what zerg can do. 3 thors and mutas are worthless. blue hellions and lings are worthless. tanks and hydras are worthless. so you're left with a single unit before hive tech and its not like its a counter, its just the only thing that doesnt fail absolutely.
Certainly true. I suppose that before the roach nerf, it was possible to brute force through a mech army in early or mid-game, but now that roaches are food 2, the absolute power of mech to counter large numbers of Zerg units with just a few of its own is showing through.
And it's not like mech is unbearably immobile in SC 2. Tanks are immobile, but thorships, hellions, vikings, and banshees are not. Overlord drops and nydus worms are still an option for Zerg, but it's easier to respond to them as mech in SC 2 than it was in SC 1.
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On May 25 2010 00:10 Azarkon wrote:
Having said that, I've still yet to see a Zerg player going the mass baneling (maybe with mass overlord drop) strategy that Day9 recommended in his daily. Combined with burrowed roaches and mutalisks, it might be possible to beat mech mid-game...
Maka vs Zenio Game 2 on Metalopolis. Zenio had a gold expo advantage but Maka still won convincingly. No hellions. Maka's army took the baneling damage and marched on. The problem in that game was the Thors. I don't understand how that few thors can shut down an army of mutalisks.
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EPT
