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On March 22 2010 08:25 PainUser wrote:
First off all of this "poor machine he didn't know Idra's race" crap needs to stop right now. In NO way do I think we should even attempt to pass any kind of regulations as to what races players can pick in any specific match. If you have worked your zvz hard and you think it is good enough to win a match vs. a Z main race player and you can pull it off, all the more power to you. I for one have been playing with Idra since the beginning of the beta and he has been playing Protoss almost exclusively. If he decided to pick up zerg for a little bit and train one matchup, and WIN it, all the more power to him.... Are we to say RANDOM isn't allowed? The reason people generally stick to one race is because they are more proficient at it. It is also easier to master all the builds and nuances of one race than all 3.
No one's crying "poor Machine." The whole point of these casts is to entertain. My argument was that it made for a less entertaining game because Machine was unprepared, even though he put in the time to prepare. It most certainly affected his frame of mind going in. Is this his own fault for assuming that Idra would just play Protoss? Maybe. And yes, the games are still quite fun to watch, but I can't help but feel that Machine's preparation would have made the games even better, especially considering that Idra does this for a living, it's his life, so any extra preparation would have been beneficial. Part of what makes the Korean games so entertaining is that the players prepare against specific races with a set of strategies, so we see carefully executed game plans. Nothing, at least going in, is improvised on the spot unlike what we (making a leap here) saw from Machine. Again, this makes for more entertaining, sophisticated games.
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Yea I just felt bad because IMO the games were not that great to watch, I had practiced my zvp in order to create a high level games for people to watch, but by him not playing protoss he was able to take away all of the practice that I had gone through in order to defeat him. The fact is that I usually win vs Idra in all of the games we have played recently so he must has just switched to zerg and massed zvz in order to defeat me. Had I known he was going to play zerg, I too would have had a week as well in order to prepare for the match, and the games would have been much more entertaining.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think the bigger question is what kind of insane, ultra-masochist you'd have to be to willingly choose to play ZvZ over PvZ.
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On March 22 2010 09:07 Machine[USA] wrote:
Yea I just felt bad because IMO the games were not that great to watch, I had practiced my zvp in order to create a high level games for people to watch, but by him not playing protoss he was able to take away all of the practice that I had gone through in order to defeat him. The fact is that I usually win vs Idra in all of the games we have played recently so he must has just switched to zerg and massed zvz in order to defeat me. Had I known he was going to play zerg, I too would have had a week as well in order to prepare for the match, and the games would have been much more entertaining.
According to the cast, he has two beta accounts (in two different realms) and plays P on one, Z on the other. Assuming this is true, it's not really like he used some random other matchup just to snipe you; he mains two races atm and in each game he picked the one he thought would most likely let him win.
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All the games were interesting but this weeks were by far the least entertaining and I think that falls squarely on one player being able to prepare and one essentially not only not having that week to prepare but wasting a week preparing for the wrong thing.
I'm fine with random players but as one person posted, if your random you have to pick random.
If going forward MLG wants to let people pick their races at the last minute they should be more forthright about it so that players can mentally prepare ahead of time to take on whatever.
Anyways great shows overall and the commentary is stellar. OMFG.fm could really learn from this show in that regards.
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Zvz is definitely the worst possible match to spectate. I really enjoyed the 3rd match though.
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I don't think misinforming your opponent about your race is a good strategy on IdrA's part. The point of these MLG showmatches is to provide entertainment and prove your superiority over another player. Neither of these were achieved.
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First game was interesting. I felt like Machine just underestimated how much economy Idra had going, and if he had realized, probably would have hung back and let Idra come to him. I don't understand why he didn't get the second queen. I just assumed that all zerg players get the second (and sometimes even a third) queen pretty early when they FE. The contrast between the roach regen and the extra armor upgrades from Idra was also interesting. I'd have thought the regen upgrade would make a bigger difference and/or that he would have burrowed and popped more to take advantage. This game pretty much highlights why ZvZ is by far the most boring and terribly matchup to play or watch. Zerg NEED Lurkers with anti armor bonus to break up the roach vs roach garbage mid game. Otherwise this matchup will continue to be a boring roach/econ waiting game.
Second game was terribly played by Machine (sorry man, you're a terrific player, I just think this was a badly played game). As a silver league random player, even I know you can't actually roach push against the fast expand like that. You either need to commit to a lot of zerglings to smash the FE, or you need to FE yourself and play the waiting game. I felt like if I had been playing in place of Idra, I'd have won that game too. He played a totally conventional strategy that will beat that rush every single time. I don't think you can ever push roach vs roach unless you've softened up his economy with lings, or you have the speed upgrade (or you have burrow and he doesn't).
Roaches are so slow before upgrades that early game you will always have the advantage if you focus more econ and make roaches just a little bit later than your opponent. I am always trying to pool a little later than my opponent in ZvZ unless I intend to go for a ling rush/push. Then FE as quick as I can, and then delay roaches just a little bit. You end up with the same ground force and 2-3 extra drones when he attacks. If you want, you can even put down a spine crawler if you are gas limited. If you pull down the extra queen it's basically impossible to get rushed roach vs roach if you expanded right.
Third game, that was some interesting cheese. Obviously if Machine had seen that cheese before he'd have just built the two spine crawlers further out and sooner, and easily crushed it with crawlers and lings. This works vs bunker rushes, cannon rushes, etc. Looks like most people just don't try this creative stuff in Platinum league US leagues, because it's common in silver/gold level matches. Drop a quick creep tumor and you can even migrate your spine crawlers all the way out to the ramp if needed. One thing Idra might have done is used that position to grab the gold mineral expo on the right side early on. Any time you've got a sustained camp like that you might as well grab the gold mineral expo. Still it's really effective because zerg really needs the FE to get map control. Desert Oasis sucks as a map though, so hopefully they remove it soon.
Finally, colors need to be chosen FOR the players in show matches. Red vs Blue, period. This pink vs purple or blue vs purple crap makes it impossible to follow same race matchups, especially in 480P quality.
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Idra is such a douche sometimes (and by that I mean all the time). I wonder how much he would have bitched if someone he was going to play with changed the race he was practicing for a week against? Then when he gets cheesed and loses he throws out insults and calls people noobs but then proceeds to cheese himself......okay?
where's superdanielman when you need him to rage on him again.
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I thought the 3rd game was quite entertaining. Really high level, polished build that was clearly thought through step by step until the endgame.
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United States313 Posts
If the MLG KotH matches were just to entertain, then why bring back the person who won last week? Why not script the games to be the most entertaining? Why would they let us choose the players if the players weren't in it to win it? Why practice a matchup all week if your just trying to be entertaining and not competitive? I thought Idra's race switch was a brilliant mind game, especially if he simply let machine assume he was playing protoss but never claimed to recently.
Without echoing PainUser too much I just want to point out that once again Idra is providing a different type of entertainment with the KotH series; just like the draw to watch every dayvie game in the first couple weeks of beta, now Idra is a player who people want to beat, and is also offering very refined competitive play. Imagine if Idra or smuft goes on a 3 or 4 series winning streak. If the games aren't complete blowouts, won't it be just that much more intense as challengers attempt to dethrone them? The MLG has largely targeted the competitive scene with most of their productions, so let them give us the most competitive environment possible. That will be entertaining, as it was here. If your interested in a more casual entertainment oriented production you might be better off with TotalHalibut's SHOUTcasts ( http://www.youtube.com/user/TotalHalibut ).
Don't limit creativity or competition, or you are forcing SC2 to be the "dumbed down" "micro-less" "good but not SC1" game that so many people fear it will be. Give the game a no holds barred chance, and see how it goes. Forcing a one month old game to try and be entertaining by adding rules to the game is the easiest way to destroy a games potential that I can imagine.
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On March 22 2010 08:25 PainUser wrote:
First off all of this "poor machine he didn't know Idra's race" crap needs to stop right now. In NO way do I think we should even attempt to pass any kind of regulations as to what races players can pick in any specific match. If you have worked your zvz hard and you think it is good enough to win a match vs. a Z main race player and you can pull it off, all the more power to you. I for one have been playing with Idra since the beginning of the beta and he has been playing Protoss almost exclusively. If he decided to pick up zerg for a little bit and train one matchup, and WIN it, all the more power to him.... Are we to say RANDOM isn't allowed? The reason people generally stick to one race is because they are more proficient at it. It is also easier to master all the builds and nuances of one race than all 3.
I think there absolutely has to be some rule in place for races. First of all, who gets to decide the matchup if both players are race pickers? What if Machine wanted to switch to terran after he saw Idra switch to zerg, is he allowed to do that? Is Idra allowed to switch back to toss after that? Do they just switch back and forth until the timer runs down?
Secondly there is the issue of voting. A lot of people are going to vote in order to see a specific matchup. I personally voted for Idra because I wanted to see a high level PvZ game, not ZvZ. I think it's fine if Idra wants to play ZvZ instead of PvZ but it should list him as a (Z) in the poll instead of a (P) so that both players have a chance to prepare their builds and the people voting would know beforehand.
As far as random is concerned I think it's a fine choice given that it's the listed option in the poll so that both players and voters are aware of it.
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On March 22 2010 08:25 PainUser wrote:
First off all of this "poor machine he didn't know Idra's race" crap needs to stop right now. In NO way do I think we should even attempt to pass any kind of regulations as to what races players can pick in any specific match. If you have worked your zvz hard and you think it is good enough to win a match vs. a Z main race player and you can pull it off, all the more power to you. I for one have been playing with Idra since the beginning of the beta and he has been playing Protoss almost exclusively. If he decided to pick up zerg for a little bit and train one matchup, and WIN it, all the more power to him.... Are we to say RANDOM isn't allowed? The reason people generally stick to one race is because they are more proficient at it. It is also easier to master all the builds and nuances of one race than all 3.
The point is that this is more for the fans than it is about winning. Hence SHOWmatches and polls every week asking who we want to see play. if race wasnt important, why would it be included in the poll? part of the desire to see certain players play is the ability to see certain matchups.
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On March 22 2010 12:22 Kiva128 wrote:where's superdanielman when you need him to rage on him again.
Story? I hate missing stuff like this lol...
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Katowice25012 Posts
Last year, during the Valor foreigner tournament that GOM casted, IdrA had a bit of chat to start a game. Dan was angry about it and said so, and eventually IdrA said something like "I have no fuckin clue what you foreigners are gonna do" and it made Dan so pissed he refused to say anything for the rest of the game. After the game Dan vented for about 5 minutes about how upset he was that IdrA not only talked, but used profanity, and said repeatedly how disappointed he was with his manner.
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The poll for Week 5 is live (and I just made a dope rhyme!) Polling ends Thursday evening at 10 p.m. CST.
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I redid the poll. Sorry to those who have already voted, but these new choices should be better. I cannot confirm that Lucifron, Orly, or DeMuslim will be able to play. In the event that these players win the poll and cannot attend, then I will go down the list until a competitor is able to attend.
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Could you post the races of the prospective players?
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EPT
