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herO's PvZ

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
311 Posts
June 08 2022 18:07 GMT
#1
Can someone explain how/why his strategy seems to work? How is it possible that protoss can put enough pressure on zerg to outexpand / macro?

I always felt that stalkers, although extremely microable, just can't hold up pound for pound to even a basic zerg army. Shouldn't mass roach beat mass stalker assuming proper macro?
xsnac
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Barbados1365 Posts
June 09 2022 04:31 GMT
#2
if it gets to a point where you have mass stalkers vs mass roach you lost already as a protoss. I think he keeps either the drone count low (and he out macros) or the roach count low and he can harass nonstop, also do you have a specific game in mind we can discuss?
1/4 \pi \epsilon_0
MJG
Profile Joined May 2018
United Kingdom927 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-06-09 07:26:02
June 09 2022 07:24 GMT
#3
It's the Oracles that are important.

The Stalkers are used to deny creep spread but they Blink away when threatened; it's the Oracles in the sky that prevent the Zerg from chasing the Stalkers down because Roaches and Lings will melt to the Oracles without Queen support.
"You have to play for yourself, you have to play to get better; you can't play to make other people happy, that's not gonna ever sustain you." - NonY
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-06-09 07:55:19
June 09 2022 07:54 GMT
#4
6 minute 4th base, doesn't suicide oracles, fast upgrades with double-forge (he's researching 3-2 by 9 minutes) and starts pushing creep back around 8 minutes. He doesn't kill many drones before pushing, each game I saw only 6-7 maybe with the oracles.

There's a branch in his decision-making somewhere at the 8 minute mark where he either keeps his zealots with his main army, or decides to start using them for suicidal runbys. Maybe if he sees hydra ling he forces, if he sees roach ravager ling he goes for runbys. Or, it could be map dependent thing.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
SamirDuran
Profile Joined May 2012
Philippines894 Posts
June 09 2022 09:17 GMT
#5
On June 09 2022 13:31 xsnac wrote:
if it gets to a point where you have mass stalkers vs mass roach you lost already as a protoss. I think he keeps either the drone count low (and he out macros) or the roach count low and he can harass nonstop, also do you have a specific game in mind we can discuss?

Specifically his game against Rogue in GSL.
Don't practice until you can get it right, practice until you can't get it wrong.
tigera6
Profile Joined March 2021
3341 Posts
June 09 2022 13:34 GMT
#6
I think there are no secret in the build order, its just that herO does it better than anybody else with his micro. Keep the Oracle alive, keep trading with Stalker but run away when outnumbered, keep constant vision on the map for runby, herO manage to do all that and thats why he won.
Its similar to what Trap did when he was beating Serral and Reynor in PvZ with ground Protoss army early last year, but with higher tech units. His control was amazing at that time and Trap was seen to have a dominant year, until Dark GSL Final happen and things went downhill.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15918 Posts
June 12 2022 08:23 GMT
#7
No, Mass Stalker is really good vs Mass Roach (see HotS era).
What prevented mass stalker in LotV was Ling Bane being really good against it and also Lurkers hardcountering it.
The 3 Oracles prevent Ling Bane from chasing a Stalker army because they will get melted off-creep.
For Lurkers herO so far managed to kill the Zerg before he got there but I'd guess the answer to this style will eventually become Zergs figuring out how they can safely transition to Lurkers against it.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
vhapter
Profile Joined May 2010
Brazil677 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-06-18 15:53:40
June 18 2022 15:53 GMT
#8
(originally posted on reddit)

What I've noticed is:

* His walls allow him to easily get and defend a massive economy super early.
* His defense is focused on a single spot. This allows him to exert map control with blink + oracles with relative safety.
* This style is focused on quantity, so the typical supply gap you'd expect is somewhat (or even entirely) negated. His supply tends to stay even and shoots right back up whenever he loses units.
* By denying creep spread, he further limits the zerg's offensive options. And by staying off creep, he can abuse his mobility to constantly pick off units without the risk of losing his stalker ball. If anything goes wrong, oracles (and sometimes force fields) serve as a final layer of safety.

This seems to slowly cause a snowball effect. And if he gets a favorable engagement with his army or deals significant damage with a zealot squad, his following warp-ins serve as massive waves that close the match.
To live is to fight, to fight is to live!
dragoon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States695 Posts
June 19 2022 20:15 GMT
#9
i switched to terran but it looks like itd be really hard to defend against without lurkers or infestors. the cost efficiency of blink stalkers/oracles vs roach/ling is insane and bcuz hes retaining his army so well with good micro he has plenty of money for huge zealot runbys.

i think perhaps a high drone style with many spines for zealot defense and ling/infestor could deal with it but its hard to say without having seen anyone deal with it very well.
i love you
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
June 20 2022 22:20 GMT
#10
I was going to write a longer blog about it, but I kinda want to see more games first.

What really makes a huge difference is the Oracle count though. Without it you can't really step anywhere near creep, even with blink, because what can happen is that you engage at the edge of creep, get close-ish to being surrounded, blink off creep, Z surrounds you again, and you go back to making Void Rays the following game. That second surround is not possible when there are four Oracles building energy and/or laying stasis traps.

The other really important aspect is that he consistently keeps the Zerg on 4 bases. This is super important because intuitively you would think that tech (infestors and lurkers to name two) just hard counter mass gateway units, but it's not straightforward to tech while Protoss is putting that much (cheap) pressure on you, your economy is contained, and you need to figure out what to do about that 6th Nexus that just went up.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Agh
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States928 Posts
July 01 2022 10:12 GMT
#11
We just have to see more games. The rematch vs DRG will be interesting at least.

It works because it's difficult to execute.
Being able to get value out of zealots via harassment and forcing minimal micro scenarios with them, while diverting most of your attention to your main innate cost effective army beings to stack on itself.

It's very effective against the current zerg meta but I think we'll begin to see its weaknesses through maps and different timings. (More aggressive evos, perhaps looking to pre punish the 3rd, etc.)


I've ran into a bit of speed overlord queen drops that seem effective against it as well. Full frontal attacks as well as harassment. (actually saw that in GSL as well now that I think about it.)


The only thing I'll definitively say about it is that the Zerg needs to contest and attempt to disrupt, it isn't a strategy you're just going to be able to absorb then eventually overpower.
I may appear to be an emotionless sarcastic pos, but just like an onion when you pull off more and more layers you find the exact same thing everytime and you start crying
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33339 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-07-08 23:59:42
July 08 2022 23:59 GMT
#12
Got to ask Dark a bit about it over Valencia and he said the part ppl underrate is the big optimization boost Protoss gets by getting to skip Robo tech

I guess that's pretty obv for ppl who have thought about the build a lot, but it does seem like a lot of ppl focus on the combat/fighting part of the comp.
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
311 Posts
July 11 2022 18:55 GMT
#13
Very interesting discussion. So this would just not work in the previous patch solely because it would die to a Queen walk? I would have never figured that out from just watching the build.
Moonerz
Profile Joined March 2014
United States444 Posts
July 14 2022 15:25 GMT
#14
On July 09 2022 08:59 Waxangel wrote:
Got to ask Dark a bit about it over Valencia and he said the part ppl underrate is the big optimization boost Protoss gets by getting to skip Robo tech

I guess that's pretty obv for ppl who have thought about the build a lot, but it does seem like a lot of ppl focus on the combat/fighting part of the comp.


Yeah that seems pretty obvious once you think about it, though I'm sure the optimization matters way more at the top level and thus most people under estimate it.

Little sad Gateway Man Zest isn't still around to play this build/style as I think it suits him pretty well.
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