EPTI always felt that stalkers, although extremely microable, just can't hold up pound for pound to even a basic zerg army. Shouldn't mass roach beat mass stalker assuming proper macro?
herO's PvZ
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angry_maia
332 Posts
I always felt that stalkers, although extremely microable, just can't hold up pound for pound to even a basic zerg army. Shouldn't mass roach beat mass stalker assuming proper macro? | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
The Stalkers are used to deny creep spread but they Blink away when threatened; it's the Oracles in the sky that prevent the Zerg from chasing the Stalkers down because Roaches and Lings will melt to the Oracles without Queen support. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
There's a branch in his decision-making somewhere at the 8 minute mark where he either keeps his zealots with his main army, or decides to start using them for suicidal runbys. Maybe if he sees hydra ling he forces, if he sees roach ravager ling he goes for runbys. Or, it could be map dependent thing. | ||
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SamirDuran
Philippines895 Posts
On June 09 2022 13:31 xsnac wrote: if it gets to a point where you have mass stalkers vs mass roach you lost already as a protoss. I think he keeps either the drone count low (and he out macros) or the roach count low and he can harass nonstop, also do you have a specific game in mind we can discuss? Specifically his game against Rogue in GSL. | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
Its similar to what Trap did when he was beating Serral and Reynor in PvZ with ground Protoss army early last year, but with higher tech units. His control was amazing at that time and Trap was seen to have a dominant year, until Dark GSL Final happen and things went downhill. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
What prevented mass stalker in LotV was Ling Bane being really good against it and also Lurkers hardcountering it. The 3 Oracles prevent Ling Bane from chasing a Stalker army because they will get melted off-creep. For Lurkers herO so far managed to kill the Zerg before he got there but I'd guess the answer to this style will eventually become Zergs figuring out how they can safely transition to Lurkers against it. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
What I've noticed is: * His walls allow him to easily get and defend a massive economy super early. * His defense is focused on a single spot. This allows him to exert map control with blink + oracles with relative safety. * This style is focused on quantity, so the typical supply gap you'd expect is somewhat (or even entirely) negated. His supply tends to stay even and shoots right back up whenever he loses units. * By denying creep spread, he further limits the zerg's offensive options. And by staying off creep, he can abuse his mobility to constantly pick off units without the risk of losing his stalker ball. If anything goes wrong, oracles (and sometimes force fields) serve as a final layer of safety. This seems to slowly cause a snowball effect. And if he gets a favorable engagement with his army or deals significant damage with a zealot squad, his following warp-ins serve as massive waves that close the match. | ||
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
i think perhaps a high drone style with many spines for zealot defense and ling/infestor could deal with it but its hard to say without having seen anyone deal with it very well. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
What really makes a huge difference is the Oracle count though. Without it you can't really step anywhere near creep, even with blink, because what can happen is that you engage at the edge of creep, get close-ish to being surrounded, blink off creep, Z surrounds you again, and you go back to making Void Rays the following game. That second surround is not possible when there are four Oracles building energy and/or laying stasis traps. The other really important aspect is that he consistently keeps the Zerg on 4 bases. This is super important because intuitively you would think that tech (infestors and lurkers to name two) just hard counter mass gateway units, but it's not straightforward to tech while Protoss is putting that much (cheap) pressure on you, your economy is contained, and you need to figure out what to do about that 6th Nexus that just went up. | ||
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Agh
United States1095 Posts
It works because it's difficult to execute. Being able to get value out of zealots via harassment and forcing minimal micro scenarios with them, while diverting most of your attention to your main innate cost effective army beings to stack on itself. It's very effective against the current zerg meta but I think we'll begin to see its weaknesses through maps and different timings. (More aggressive evos, perhaps looking to pre punish the 3rd, etc.) I've ran into a bit of speed overlord queen drops that seem effective against it as well. Full frontal attacks as well as harassment. (actually saw that in GSL as well now that I think about it.) The only thing I'll definitively say about it is that the Zerg needs to contest and attempt to disrupt, it isn't a strategy you're just going to be able to absorb then eventually overpower. | ||
Waxangel
United States33678 Posts
I guess that's pretty obv for ppl who have thought about the build a lot, but it does seem like a lot of ppl focus on the combat/fighting part of the comp. | ||
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angry_maia
332 Posts
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Moonerz
United States467 Posts
On July 09 2022 08:59 Waxangel wrote: Got to ask Dark a bit about it over Valencia and he said the part ppl underrate is the big optimization boost Protoss gets by getting to skip Robo tech I guess that's pretty obv for ppl who have thought about the build a lot, but it does seem like a lot of ppl focus on the combat/fighting part of the comp. Yeah that seems pretty obvious once you think about it, though I'm sure the optimization matters way more at the top level and thus most people under estimate it. Little sad Gateway Man Zest isn't still around to play this build/style as I think it suits him pretty well. | ||
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