I was quite happy with how the actual defence went in the game (comp wise) But I kinda took my second gas too late I think - delayed it on purpose because i thought i would rather get my natural up and go into standard bio, but the proxy voids took me by surprise. So my viking response was rather late and my viking flower, thanks to bad micro, never really snowballed. In the end, he managed to deny my natural for too long and I just didnt have enough stuff to deal with his 4 carriers that came after the voids.
So im wondering what i should adjust.
Off the top of my head it's mainly just to take my 2nd gas earlier when cannoned and maybe try to get a better scout off ( actually read him instead of mindlessly scouting but not reacting)
Am I missing something here or would that be enough?
On May 11 2021 01:54 alpenrahm wrote: Hey, first time this happened to me. here s the replay: https://drop.sc/replay/18993276
I was quite happy with how the actual defence went in the game (comp wise) But I kinda took my second gas too late I think - delayed it on purpose because i thought i would rather get my natural up and go into standard bio, but the proxy voids took me by surprise. So my viking response was rather late and my viking flower, thanks to bad micro, never really snowballed. In the end, he managed to deny my natural for too long and I just didnt have enough stuff to deal with his 4 carriers that came after the voids.
So im wondering what i should adjust.
Off the top of my head it's mainly just to take my 2nd gas earlier when cannoned and maybe try to get a better scout off ( actually read him instead of mindlessly scouting but not reacting)
Am I missing something here or would that be enough?
need to post this on sc2 strategy form this is bw strategy forum
You can pretty much assume Protoss is going to followup with a stargate with these "cannon-contain" builds. They use it to get a good position in your natural then drop shield batteries and more cannons to cover their air units. This has become more common than a straight voidray rush at my mmr.
The 2nd gas is definitely important. You're stuck on 1 base for a while regardless and you need to tech up. Teching up can get you 2 things to deal with this. #1 a tank to start clearing the ground, #2 a starport.
If they for some reason don't followup with a stargate you can grab 2 cloaked banshees and start harrassing them. They will have a second nexus up and you need to get some damage done since your natural is delayed. I'd probably get a Raven after the 2 banshees cuz anyone who plays like this is probably pretty likely to followup with DTs lol...
If they do followup with a stargate, the 1 tank will still serve you well. Best response to this type of play (and you should do this whether you see the stargate or not) is to get 4 marines out off of no reactor and 2 bunkers up. I would start producing mines after your tank is out and lay them around your tank/bunkers outside of photon cannon detection range. They will either have no detection to deal with this or be forced to make an oracle which is a hell of a lot better than another voidray, tempest or carrier. The second most important thing is a reactored starport. After the initial 4 marines, I'd get a reactor on the rax and immediately swap and start double viking production. Once you have around 10 vikings out you will dominate their air. The tank is good just to keep some shots firing on their cannon/batteries and to drain battery energy and apply pressure while you stall for vikings. You also want to continue marine production as long as you can afford it. While you're delaying for vikings, it's important to pull a few SCVs here and there to keep your bunkers and tank alive. If you're not fast enough at pulling scvs, it's probably not a bad idea to keep 4-5 near your tanks and bunkers for fast repairs. I'd keep a Tech Lab on the factory even while you're producing mines so you can build another tank if you need to.
It can also really be good to send 6 vikings or so across the map and start harassing them as seen on Berry Crunch's stream and Maru in the GSL 2021 Season 1 Semi-Finals.
You can still grab a 2nd CC off of this for the mules/supply drops (supply drops are pretty good if you're on 1 base because you have a limited amount of minerals - each supply drop saves you 100 minerals and all mules do is make you mine out faster and you probably don't need the constant extra mineral income anyway.) I would build the 2nd CC on the opposite side of your base from where the contain is happening. That way it might go unscouted and you can float it and start a second base. Idk what MMR you are, but I'm about 4600-4700 and Protoss will usually have a zealot or something scouting for the flying CC. If they do scout it, your vikings can usually land and defend the gateway units they send to attack it. It's not a bad idea to get a medivac to ferry scvs down to the other base as well as marines you can put in a bunker for defense.
If your barracks is on your ramp when the contain starts, you definitely want to float it to near your cc and build your other production there with your bunkers in front.
Protoss has a million variations of this build. Sometimes a cannon rush, sometimes a proxy gateway, sometimes a straight stargate rush or a combination of anything mentioned. I find usually if I can safely get my reactored starport and bunkers up, I don't have a problem defending. Usually if I lose it's because I take early damage to some variation of the build I haven't seen before.
Hope this helps. It's all about responding, and the faster all Terrans learn how to respond to this, the sooner we won't have to play vs it anymore
The defence is the same as it is against any other proxy Void Ray build. To quote from what I posted in response to a similar thread that was posted recently:
Make Bunkers and Marines to defend your CC and Factory. Don't place within range of the Shield Batteries because killing the Shield Batteries isn't required to defend this strategy.
Get a couple of Cyclones to make it difficult for the Void Rays to commit too far away from the Shield Batteries. They're mostly there to ensure a safe transition into Vikings. I don't believe massing them (as in uThermal's video) is optimal as Cyclones aren't great against Tempest transitions, but it can work if the Protoss stubbornly sticks to Void Rays and Shield Batteries without any attempt to transition.
Once safe to do so, Mass Vikings until you have enough to one-shot a Void Ray. At this point you basically win the game.
The response remains the same even if they transition into Tempests. The only difference is that you need to mass Vikings until you can one-shot Tempests instead of one-shot Void Rays.
Good hold on the cannon rush, the game should have been over then. Second gas earlier definitely would have helped, but the bigger issue is how you decided to spend your gas. One thing I can recommend, is if you SCV scout a cannon rush, steal his gas. That will make it clear when he transitions and delay said transition. Also a Reaper in his base can pay dividends too.
After holding the cannon rush, instead of just doing a powerful one base attack and winning, you went into a macro game grabbing combat shields, Widows Mines and a second CC. Even more concerning is the lack of scouting. He just failed a cannon rush big time, but you're playing like it is a normal game.
What follow-ups are there for Protoss after a failed cannon rush when he is behind on economy, tech and army? Warpgate is way too delayed to consider any kind of Gateway timing except Dark Templars. An Immortal bust from here is possible, but not good. Stargate is the most likely transition. Finally, he could take a second Nexus and try to macro out.
In every case, a one base timing kills him. Do an old school 1-1-1, get Marines, Tanks or Clones and Banshees, Ravens (both to spot DT's and disable units) or Vikings, it counters all of the above once you know what he is doing. And if you only end up containing him for some reason, stay on one base and continue building units. Terran can float their main CC to a new base to continue mining, Protoss can't.
He choose the Stargate route. But you didn't know because of a lack of scouting. Knowing is half the battle. I'm at the 4:16 mark in the replay now and I can already see how this is going to play out, you aren't prepared at all for this follow-up. At 5:20 you've been under attack from Voids for some time, have over 100 energy on the CC (could have been scans to scout, could have been Mules) and have no Engineering Bay! Turrets are really good versus Void Rays.
At 7:15 he is building a contain with Batteries and Cannons and you're building still Widow mines from the Factory. Widow Mines aren't great versus this, or even good because they don't one shot Voids. Just watch the reply to see how effective they were... they've done nothing so far. Much better to get a Tech lab on that Factory and get Cyclones and Tanks. With Tanks, Clones, Marines, Turrets and Vikings you can pick off the Batteries from a safe distance with the Tanks. Instead you're about to be contained.
Also you're building Vikings, but committed to Combat Shields and Stim on the Marines. If you're going to commit heavy to Marines, get some Medivacs and go across the map and crush his base. But we're looking at 0-0 Marines without Medivacs and a handful of Vikings about to charge in to try to break a contain of Cannons, Voids and Batteries. One of the reason is a 1-1-1 timing is so effective is that SCV's can repair Tanks, Banshees and Clones, but Marines can't be repaired unless you have Medivacs.
Predictably, you lose the fight hard and lose your second CC at 8:47. And the game is over basically. You throw down two more CC's in your main for some reason which should make the fact you haven't been building units constantly over the whole game abundantly clear. Everything after this is an extended death animation...
The moral of the story here is you need to scout and react appropriately the strategy your opponent is doing and constantly build units. Blindly going Widow Mines (which did nothing, yes I know he threw away his Voids on them at the very end like a fool, a masters Protoss will never do that, and that was only after the game was effectively over) and Combat Shields with a second CC is not the correct response to Protoss cheese.
If you go decide to go Bio, build a huge ball of Marines and get a Medivac across the map. You were not consistently building Marines though. Better to just do a 1-1-1 and kill him. But most important of all, know what he is doing.
Looks like you abandoned your build too early. Just build a bunker once you see his gate go down like that and get your reactor up instead of walling like you did. Build your cc in base, get your factory and 2nd gas, then cyclone -> tank or cyclone only once you confirm its void and not a weird one base charge all in. Cyclones and marines will destroy this before it gets a foothold.
EPT
