It feels like ages since I've made a guide or strategy thread here so I've decided to throw one together quickly. This isn't a super detailed guide, but more of a stylistic guideline for people to learn from and hopefully some of you to challenge me on so we can debate the various merits. To start off here's a VoD vs Stats showing a decent execution of the style.
The style I show in this game is my standard ZvP, partly inspired by Solar's style shown at Dreamhack.. The compositional progression is Ling-Roach, a wave of 6-12 mutas into 2nd evo chamber and Hive. You can reactively make ravagers whenever you feel threatened and besides 8-12 ravagers can usually just go pure zerglings in your army until you hit ultra-infestor.
Vs certain early attacks you might want more roaches. You always get roach speed just incase.
Your upgrades focus on melee first, then carapace. No range upgrades.
If your spire is scouted early you should go for a faster 2nd evo chamber and infestation to tech to Ultras faster, and commit to a smaller muta count. If you scout them pre-emptively building phenix, don't commit to any mutas.
The mutas don't need to do direct damage, just keep the Protoss pinned back, force cannons/phenix/defensive stalkers and slow them down from progressing to the immortal/disruptor/archon/tempest/storm deathball.
Opening build order guidelines:
3-hatch before pool 2xgas @3:00 4th queen asap 2 lings to scout - use shift + hold position to avoid any adepts coming and block their 3rd base 3:45 safety roach warren Lair as fast as possible based on scouting. No later than 4:30. Single evo chamber around the time Lair starts @3-base saturation drop 4 more gases. ~5:00 Fast 4th base as soon as you can squeeze it in @Lair - Roach speed, Spire. @3-base GAS AND MIneral saturation: 10-12 roaches and some zergling production. Drone 4th base up to 8 drones on minerals + gases when we feel safe to based on scouting. @100%spire - 6-15 mutas @50%-100%spire - infestation pit + 2nd evo --> Hive asap. (The faster the infestation, the faster the ultras. You should start this no later than the spire finishing so your ultras hit at a reasonable timing.)
Note: Don't be afraid to keep massing lings. They counter most protoss units, especially when paired with corrosive bile. Also since the popularity of mass chargelot styles I'm experimenting with just going lurkers rather than mutas as standard. My other reaction is to drop a bane nest and mix in a chunk of slowbanes and some spines to defend the pushes - though this option doesn't seem very strong if you're not in a good spot.
Scouting: 3:30 Scout natural gases whilst sacrificing 2nd overlord into main Overseer/ovie speed constant scouting once Lair is finished.
Been using a similar style in ZvP with massive success.
I usually purposely get stuck in the mid-game though, microing mutas against phoenix with how mutas move in LOTV is so satisfying and seems to go so much better than it did in HOTS.
- You say scout at 3:30 - what do I have to look for and how do I react to certain gas counts etc.
- Melee or Range upgrades?
- Your Overlord timings?
Thank you!!!!
Hey mate sorry for the slow response. 18/18/18 hatch hatch pool should be fine. Doesn't really matter could do all on 17 too.
With the scouting it starts indicating whats going on. You do a double sacrifice/poke and if you see tech then your react to the tech. robo = have some roaches popping at the fastest a prism can hit you. Starate = spores popping as an oracle can hit you.
If you only see no gas (the most important and reliable information) then you keep watching these. Basically every moment past 3:30 with no natural gas AND no 3rd base = Where the hell are his minerals? So you need to be a bit safer vs adept pressures, pre-emptively build a few roaches around 4:30 or maybe even earlier, that sort of thing.
If you still see no gas past 4:00 then stop droning at 50 drones (55 absolute max) and mass units. He only has 1.5 base economy so 2-base econ with a 3rd finished and 2-3 gases is more than enough. You just need to defend whatever attack is coming and you will destroy him.
I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
On December 21 2015 10:02 Maxie wrote: I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
The Reason Protoss doesnt go for Colissi ist Viper, rush to hive and get 3 Viper and with a big Hydra Roach Viper push you can kill the protoss, jsut a click, click Viper control group and abduct click on evry colossi
On December 21 2015 10:02 Maxie wrote: I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
Archon's serve the same function as the collossi in doing very well vs mass ling, and being a much more accessible tech-path. Big swaps into archon-chargelot styles can hit VERY powerful timings. If you scout this sort of stuff adding a bunch of spines and more roaches can do quite well. Also counter-attacking very hard with your horde of lings to buy time. The moment ultras come out you can crush even if you lose a base, or sometimes even two bases. Your muta squad will help with this counter-attacking and keeping the protoss back, however if you prefer a front-on style then going corruptors and coming in with a flank will crush it.
Vs forcefields just get used to dropping bile asap on them. If they significantly block you off, pull back momentarily and re-engage when the FF is knocked down.
vs mass adept plays yes roaches are the answer. Also vs any 2-gas mass adept/chargelot all-in, whether with immortals or not, it's important to focus on roaches NOT ravager as it's hard to hit these units with bile and you're pretty low on gas. 4 roaches > 1 ravager vs chargelots or mass adepts.
Really struggling against toss, I'm plat but the most braindead a-moving gold toss are stomping me with ease.
The problem I'm having is all of the tricks - if they open stargate harass and you're not ready for it, you're fucked. If they do a timing push with stalker immortal you're fucked. Dts, I've even seen toss get early tempests supported by stalkers on only 3 base and harass/push with those
The only thing that has worked so far is lurker defense - lings and hydras get blown up by colossus, storm and disruptor
I scout with sac'ing overlords but until speed they are easily killed by a pylon overcharge.
No early aggression of any kind seems possible thanks to pylon overcharge and the hard countering of lings by adepts or roaches by...anything
On December 22 2015 08:25 VBBandit wrote: Is just transitioning into mass banelings feasible in holding adept/chargelot all in? Then cleaning up with remaining lings and small amount of mutas?
minus the infestors (too high tech you won't get there) yeah that can work. It's really hard to get up enough larva production in time though so just massing roaches is usually the easiest and most reliable way to stop this.
On December 22 2015 17:06 straycat wrote: 3 hatch b4 pool - is that a general safe build in lotv? (havent played since ~april). or is it just meta-safe, so to speak?
Yep. If you really can't get the hang of reacting to pylon rushes or cannons feel free to go hatch-pool-hatch, it's almost as efficient as 3-hatch before pool.
On December 22 2015 14:46 Merkmerk wrote: Really struggling against toss, I'm plat but the most braindead a-moving gold toss are stomping me with ease.
The problem I'm having is all of the tricks - if they open stargate harass and you're not ready for it, you're fucked. If they do a timing push with stalker immortal you're fucked. Dts, I've even seen toss get early tempests supported by stalkers on only 3 base and harass/push with those
The only thing that has worked so far is lurker defense - lings and hydras get blown up by colossus, storm and disruptor
I scout with sac'ing overlords but until speed they are easily killed by a pylon overcharge.
No early aggression of any kind seems possible thanks to pylon overcharge and the hard countering of lings by adepts or roaches by...anything
Sounds like you're having a really tough time. It's very easy to get tilted and emotional and just feel like anything Protoss will do will beat you.I'd focus internally on my own execution if i were you. Just make sure you focus on macroing a lot better, locking down your early build order and adept defence, dropping 2-3 safety spores at ~3:45 each game and you should be in a good spot. at 5:00 you should have roach warren, ling speed and lair on the way, an evo down and possibly starting to upgrade and 50+ drones.
For scouting try to not path over pylons and you'll find you can scout quite well. As pointed out in the guide you can check the natural gases every game and that tells you a lot.
Hi all. I've been struggling against Protoss air + HTs. First of all, I dont know if it's sensible letting P take expansions for free and mass air units (even if you play extremely greedy). Second, how should be engaged that kind of army? Parasitic bomb is pretty good against air, but vipers get hard countered by HT's... I've tried base racing whenever the P fleet leaves home, but it seems to me a bit of a coinflip due to high count of cannons and mass recall available. Any good adivce?
Hey PiG, fantastic guide! Thanks for the great streams and advice.
Been trying out this build and really liking it. The only move that toss makes that screws with me is when they make a medium-sized (6-8) pheonix fleet (typically out of 1 stargate) and start flying around and screwing with me. I typically like to drop 1 spore per base, pump out a few extra queens and chase them around transfusing as I go. But inevitably the pheonixes will pick off a few overlords, some transferring drones and the occasional stray queen.
Do you think it's best to skip the spire in this case, lay a hydra den instead and get a contingent of 8 hydras or so? This eliminates the easy transition to broods but does open up lurker play. The other thought would be to get the infester energy upgrade and try to land a fungle.
On December 22 2015 22:02 therealkillemall wrote: Hi all. I've been struggling against Protoss air + HTs. First of all, I dont know if it's sensible letting P take expansions for free and mass air units (even if you play extremely greedy). Second, how should be engaged that kind of army? Parasitic bomb is pretty good against air, but vipers get hard countered by HT's... I've tried base racing whenever the P fleet leaves home, but it seems to me a bit of a coinflip due to high count of cannons and mass recall available. Any good adivce?
Thank you all.
Generally not letting it get too far along is a good idea. The "piss build" can work really well re-actively off this opening vs phenix openers. Instead of mutas go for 10 corruptors and a lot of ling-roach. Distract them at the front with your main army while pissing on one of their nexuses in the back. Dis-engage, and do it again hitting a different nexus. Follow-up with the standard transition to broods and ultras. Killing their nexuses will rekt their economy pretty hard :D. Big Hydra-ling-corruptor timings can work just to win with a frontal assault sometimes too, though it can be a bit of a gamble.
Ofc if it does get to lategame you want advice on how to fight airtoss. Vs Tempests, phenix and voidrays you want to have a bunch of broodlords. A few vipers (a lot if they have heaps of voidrays), some queens, and a shit-ton of corruptors. Spread the corruptors in a huge concave over multiple screens before you engage. Parasitic Bomb on any clumped air units, especially Voidrays and otherwise just try to transfuse as much as you can and focus-fire templar with broods if possible.
vs Carriers - You can kill them before they reach critical mass with +carapace corruptor timings focusing down the carriers. However the more reliable method is to just go 3-3 ultras and adrenal lings + banes and just counterattack them constantly off a huge economy of ~100 drones. Use banes to bust walls and just flood through constantly. It will be very hard for them to maintain much economy if you multiprong correctly. Each interceptor shot will do 0.5-1 damage which means it will take 500-1000 interceptor shots to kill a single ultralisk.
In the meantime drop a huge ball of spores infront of your newest bases and add ~10 infestors. You should be adding double spire behind all this and upgrading constantly and when he finally tries to shove in you can build a shit-ton of corruptors. Be wary of doing this too early as remember you should smash a basetrade with just ultra-ling-bane and as long as you keep your spore-army alive he will lose. So only fill up on corruptors when you really have to. When he does finally fight your spores just chain-fungal interceptors over the spores and it will cost him a huge amount of money to bust through. If you have corruptors supporting too he shouldn't be able to break through. It's very technical but hilarious when you do it right. The ultimate protoss armada tends to just get shat on by good counterattacks and units that can't hit up :D
On December 23 2015 10:19 Quazman wrote: Hey PiG, fantastic guide! Thanks for the great streams and advice.
Been trying out this build and really liking it. The only move that toss makes that screws with me is when they make a medium-sized (6-8) pheonix fleet (typically out of 1 stargate) and start flying around and screwing with me. I typically like to drop 1 spore per base, pump out a few extra queens and chase them around transfusing as I go. But inevitably the pheonixes will pick off a few overlords, some transferring drones and the occasional stray queen.
Do you think it's best to skip the spire in this case, lay a hydra den instead and get a contingent of 8 hydras or so? This eliminates the easy transition to broods but does open up lurker play. The other thought would be to get the infester energy upgrade and try to land a fungle.
Thanks man, keep up the amazing work!
Hey mate great question. The hydra contingent is something I like to do, though I rarely go lurker with them as it costs so much gas and I really want that hive tech out. I usually still stick to the exact same plan otherwise, adding infestors and then going ultras and into broods.
However I also have recently started messing around with the piss build vs phenix players (as outlined in my previous answer), especially if my lair and spire are fast I can skimp on spores, sometimes skipping them entirely and go straight to 10 corruptors. Pissing their nexii down is hilarious and you have a sickkkk broodlord transition. With 8+ corruptors it takes under 10 seconds to kill a nexus. So with 10 corruptors its only possible for them to save it if they see you coming and have a LOT of antiair in position.
It hasn't worked for me because of how hard phoenix shuts down mutas and stargate opener is really popular right now for the map control and harass it gives
Muta tech switches can work though
Also pig I was getting owned with your build by zealot archon and other gateway / robo heavy armies until I started going lurkers. I am only platinum but getting 8-10 lurkers was the only thing letting me handle protoss ground armies
ps. do you have any replays of your zvp dealing with phoenix contain?
On January 03 2016 21:03 littlebear wrote: I remember in HotS you could go mass mutas ZvP. You'd have full map control so you could expand everywhere, your fuckton of extra minerals would go into spines, and if the opponent moved out you would just win the base trade. A sufficient number of mutas plus good micro would beat everything but phoenix/archon/high templar, and if the game really dragged on you could transition to infestor ultras.
Does this still work?
On January 04 2016 18:45 Merkmerk wrote: ^
It hasn't worked for me because of how hard phoenix shuts down mutas and stargate opener is really popular right now for the map control and harass it gives
Muta tech switches can work though
Also pig I was getting owned with your build by zealot archon and other gateway / robo heavy armies until I started going lurkers. I am only platinum but getting 8-10 lurkers was the only thing letting me handle protoss ground armies
ps. do you have any replays of your zvp dealing with phoenix contain?
Yeah Merkmerk is pretty right. Even in HOTS if you did that style it woudldn't really work much vs high level opponents because even if you force a lot of stalker-archon, they could eventually get phenix with range and you'd never be able to trade off your mutas efficiently.
Yeah Merkmerk Chargelot builds are really common right now I'm thinking of a baneling nest might help, but generally I'm aiming to practice ling-(safety warren)-Lurker and otherwise follow the same progression and see how it goes. Once I have a good feel for that style I'll see how to adjust when necessary and find the sweet spot.
For vs phenix read previous comments I made in this thread and check out this VoD:
There's also a VoD vs Parting where I go for the same transition thinking he was following up with phenix and it doesn't work out so well, but I end up winning so hey it couldn't be too bad
Alternatively my previous standard and much less trolling reaction is to just get a handful of hydras and skimp on roaches vs phenix and continue along the same tech path. I don't think I have any VoDs or replays of that on hand though sorry about that.
I feel like you dealt with the initial 2 Adepts better than I ever do with gasless openings. When I play, the Adept harass really starts to throw off momentum, sometimes even getting quite a few drone kills. Is it safe to say that against 1-Gate adept/expand, you want to have about 10 slow Lings by 3:30~ to help get a surround / ensure no Drones fall? Would you get more slow Zerglings against 2gate adept? Any tips for scouting/responding/minimizing damage from adepts with a gasless 3-hatch opening would be appreciated!
It's actually kind of funny, as I watched the game I was thinking "Alright this is when 3 of my workers die to these adepts then an oracle flies into my main and kills 8 more." State went to your natural; but if he had have stayed in the main he probably would have netted a few extra kills. Would you say it was a mistake for you not to have a spore in the main by then? You'd have to start it so early though like...3:45 on Ulrena.
On January 10 2016 23:18 TangSC wrote: I feel like you dealt with the initial 2 Adepts better than I ever do with gasless openings. When I play, the Adept harass really starts to throw off momentum, sometimes even getting quite a few drone kills. Is it safe to say that against 1-Gate adept/expand, you want to have about 10 slow Lings by 3:30~ to help get a surround / ensure no Drones fall? Would you get more slow Zerglings against 2gate adept? Any tips for scouting/responding/minimizing damage from adepts with a gasless 3-hatch opening would be appreciated!
It's actually kind of funny, as I watched the game I was thinking "Alright this is when 3 of my workers die to these adepts then an oracle flies into my main and kills 8 more." State went to your natural; but if he had have stayed in the main he probably would have netted a few extra kills. Would you say it was a mistake for you not to have a spore in the main by then? You'd have to start it so early though like...3:45 on Ulrena.
Yeah adept defence is a never-ending battle haha. Generally I say have 4 lings for every adept, and a few more to make things easier is never a bad idea. Also always connect your bases with creep (something I'm only now adding in as a "I MUST DO THIS EVERY GAME" as players get better and better with adepts.
The general rule is you follow the shades with the lings (try to be in front of them as they move faster). The fast 4th queen extra at the front puts a timer on adepts hitting your front base, so even if they dive in there just run the drones and follow the shade. Always run the drones from the actual adepts and cover the shade with lings whilst queens whittle away. Only go to surround the actual adepts when you can shut it down. Remember from it shading to a location you have 4 seconds till it can shade again, and 7 seconds till the shade finishes. So between shade's there's 11 seconds where the adept is exposed, but if you commit and don't kill them you'll expose a different mineral line to drones, so you have to be sure you can shut them down.
Yeah not having a spore in the main on this map was sloppy as all hell haha. Most exposed base should always get a safety spore or the creep queen chilling in it! He definitely coulda got ~6-7 kills.
When I spot adept harrass incoming (i.e. scout a 2 gate expand build with chronoed adepts) I usually make a spine in each of my mineral lines and cut zerglings - usually they see this and don't build more than the first 2/4 adepts and this lets me transition safely into roaches (to hold aggression) or into hive tech (atm i've been going ling lurker ravager with brood/ultra in the very late game...anyway, do you think building 3 spines is really punishing at that stage in the game, considering the above? I know its probably inefficient but I really struggle vs adepts
1) Many protoss players add their 3rd/4th gases almost at 4:00, usually 5 - 10 seconds earlier. In this case, i can leave my ovie flying/looking a bit more at their natural to see if they will throw down the gases?
2) In case that my scout was denied, and i only have been able to see 1 Gas at natural, how do i play? can i assume that he went the 4th as well? or i still need to be worried of adept/immortal/zealot?
3) Last question, any safe things do vs Dark Templars, people in lower leagues like a lot, they often hide the shrine, even put a fake tech (stargate, robotics) to feint you to believe there's no DTs and i die.
On January 16 2016 02:31 Maxie wrote: I remember you mentioning a ZvZ guide on your stream at some point, got an ETA on that one?
SOONtm - I'll throw up a simple guide in the next day or two and add to it over time.
On January 19 2016 07:52 cabal] wrote: how do you deal with cannon rushes with 3 hatch in lotv?
Check on any scouting probe with a drone, follow it if you feel safer that way and pull drones. If a pylon goes down ~5 drones, The moment the pylon finishes have ~8 more drones hotkeyd and bring them down while your other 5 drones block the key cannon spots (don't let them wall off any cannons) and try to kill the probe. If it's before you drop your 3rd hatch ofc drop a pool first.
I've actually heard that hatch-pool-hatch is more efficient then 3-hatch (and it feels pretty identical ingame) so if you're more comfortable just do that every game.
On January 19 2016 08:49 VBBandit wrote: When I spot adept harrass incoming (i.e. scout a 2 gate expand build with chronoed adepts) I usually make a spine in each of my mineral lines and cut zerglings - usually they see this and don't build more than the first 2/4 adepts and this lets me transition safely into roaches (to hold aggression) or into hive tech (atm i've been going ling lurker ravager with brood/ultra in the very late game...anyway, do you think building 3 spines is really punishing at that stage in the game, considering the above? I know its probably inefficient but I really struggle vs adepts
It's costly but definitely can work up to a pretty high level. Just make sure you delay your gases till 3:30+ if you prefer this method.
On January 19 2016 11:28 Alstreim wrote: PiG
1) Many protoss players add their 3rd/4th gases almost at 4:00, usually 5 - 10 seconds earlier. In this case, i can leave my ovie flying/looking a bit more at their natural to see if they will throw down the gases?
2) In case that my scout was denied, and i only have been able to see 1 Gas at natural, how do i play? can i assume that he went the 4th as well? or i still need to be worried of adept/immortal/zealot?
3) Last question, any safe things do vs Dark Templars, people in lower leagues like a lot, they often hide the shrine, even put a fake tech (stargate, robotics) to feint you to believe there's no DTs and i die.
Thanks in advance, Alstreim
1. Yeah if you go in a bit later at 4:00 it should be fine, you won't have hit 50 drones yet so it's not too important till then. It's just simpler to poke/send the ovie in at 3:30 along with the sacrificial one.
2. I'd assume both at 90% of players won't be playing a mindgame. Therefore that's the right decision 90% of the time. If you want just send that overlord in a bit further to confirm, but already knowing they're mining 3-gas means the strongest attack will still be delayed from a 2-gas timing so with efficient play you'll usually hold with close to 3-base saturation. Ofc if you haven't seen a 3rd base at ~5:30 you'll probably just be massing units anyway.
3. Going Lair first as standard can help. Or just putting down a few safety spores every game.
EPT
