It feels like ages since I've made a guide or strategy thread here so I've decided to throw one together quickly. This isn't a super detailed guide, but more of a stylistic guideline for people to learn from and hopefully some of you to challenge me on so we can debate the various merits. To start off here's a VoD vs Stats showing a decent execution of the style.
The style I show in this game is my standard ZvP, partly inspired by Solar's style shown at Dreamhack.. The compositional progression is Ling-Roach, a wave of 6-12 mutas into 2nd evo chamber and Hive. You can reactively make ravagers whenever you feel threatened and besides 8-12 ravagers can usually just go pure zerglings in your army until you hit ultra-infestor.
Vs certain early attacks you might want more roaches. You always get roach speed just incase.
Your upgrades focus on melee first, then carapace. No range upgrades.
If your spire is scouted early you should go for a faster 2nd evo chamber and infestation to tech to Ultras faster, and commit to a smaller muta count. If you scout them pre-emptively building phenix, don't commit to any mutas.
The mutas don't need to do direct damage, just keep the Protoss pinned back, force cannons/phenix/defensive stalkers and slow them down from progressing to the immortal/disruptor/archon/tempest/storm deathball.
Opening build order guidelines:
3-hatch before pool 2xgas @3:00 4th queen asap 2 lings to scout - use shift + hold position to avoid any adepts coming and block their 3rd base 3:45 safety roach warren Lair as fast as possible based on scouting. No later than 4:30. Single evo chamber around the time Lair starts @3-base saturation drop 4 more gases. ~5:00 Fast 4th base as soon as you can squeeze it in @Lair - Roach speed, Spire. @3-base GAS AND MIneral saturation: 10-12 roaches and some zergling production. Drone 4th base up to 8 drones on minerals + gases when we feel safe to based on scouting. @100%spire - 6-15 mutas @50%-100%spire - infestation pit + 2nd evo --> Hive asap. (The faster the infestation, the faster the ultras. You should start this no later than the spire finishing so your ultras hit at a reasonable timing.)
Note: Don't be afraid to keep massing lings. They counter most protoss units, especially when paired with corrosive bile. Also since the popularity of mass chargelot styles I'm experimenting with just going lurkers rather than mutas as standard. My other reaction is to drop a bane nest and mix in a chunk of slowbanes and some spines to defend the pushes - though this option doesn't seem very strong if you're not in a good spot.
Scouting: 3:30 Scout natural gases whilst sacrificing 2nd overlord into main Overseer/ovie speed constant scouting once Lair is finished.
Been using a similar style in ZvP with massive success.
I usually purposely get stuck in the mid-game though, microing mutas against phoenix with how mutas move in LOTV is so satisfying and seems to go so much better than it did in HOTS.
- You say scout at 3:30 - what do I have to look for and how do I react to certain gas counts etc.
- Melee or Range upgrades?
- Your Overlord timings?
Thank you!!!!
Hey mate sorry for the slow response. 18/18/18 hatch hatch pool should be fine. Doesn't really matter could do all on 17 too.
With the scouting it starts indicating whats going on. You do a double sacrifice/poke and if you see tech then your react to the tech. robo = have some roaches popping at the fastest a prism can hit you. Starate = spores popping as an oracle can hit you.
If you only see no gas (the most important and reliable information) then you keep watching these. Basically every moment past 3:30 with no natural gas AND no 3rd base = Where the hell are his minerals? So you need to be a bit safer vs adept pressures, pre-emptively build a few roaches around 4:30 or maybe even earlier, that sort of thing.
If you still see no gas past 4:00 then stop droning at 50 drones (55 absolute max) and mass units. He only has 1.5 base economy so 2-base econ with a 3rd finished and 2-3 gases is more than enough. You just need to defend whatever attack is coming and you will destroy him.
I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
On December 21 2015 10:02 Maxie wrote: I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
The Reason Protoss doesnt go for Colissi ist Viper, rush to hive and get 3 Viper and with a big Hydra Roach Viper push you can kill the protoss, jsut a click, click Viper control group and abduct click on evry colossi
On December 21 2015 10:02 Maxie wrote: I've been having a few issues when trying to go for this build. I'm rather certain that a big part of it is that I haven't been rushing hive and ultras etc quick enough, but:
-When the protoss goes for rather quick colossi. Maybe this isn't common in higher leagues but it is where I am and it just feels like it makes the lings completely useless. -Force fields also make lings mostly useless. Sadly not all maps are open fields.
What is your response with this build against fast colossi? How do I best engage and handle protoss armies that uses a lot of forcefields when I'm ling heavy?
I've also ended up against mass adepts as a response to me having a lot of lings, I guess the answer to that is more roach/ravager.
Archon's serve the same function as the collossi in doing very well vs mass ling, and being a much more accessible tech-path. Big swaps into archon-chargelot styles can hit VERY powerful timings. If you scout this sort of stuff adding a bunch of spines and more roaches can do quite well. Also counter-attacking very hard with your horde of lings to buy time. The moment ultras come out you can crush even if you lose a base, or sometimes even two bases. Your muta squad will help with this counter-attacking and keeping the protoss back, however if you prefer a front-on style then going corruptors and coming in with a flank will crush it.
Vs forcefields just get used to dropping bile asap on them. If they significantly block you off, pull back momentarily and re-engage when the FF is knocked down.
vs mass adept plays yes roaches are the answer. Also vs any 2-gas mass adept/chargelot all-in, whether with immortals or not, it's important to focus on roaches NOT ravager as it's hard to hit these units with bile and you're pretty low on gas. 4 roaches > 1 ravager vs chargelots or mass adepts.
Really struggling against toss, I'm plat but the most braindead a-moving gold toss are stomping me with ease.
The problem I'm having is all of the tricks - if they open stargate harass and you're not ready for it, you're fucked. If they do a timing push with stalker immortal you're fucked. Dts, I've even seen toss get early tempests supported by stalkers on only 3 base and harass/push with those
The only thing that has worked so far is lurker defense - lings and hydras get blown up by colossus, storm and disruptor
I scout with sac'ing overlords but until speed they are easily killed by a pylon overcharge.
No early aggression of any kind seems possible thanks to pylon overcharge and the hard countering of lings by adepts or roaches by...anything
On December 22 2015 08:25 VBBandit wrote: Is just transitioning into mass banelings feasible in holding adept/chargelot all in? Then cleaning up with remaining lings and small amount of mutas?
minus the infestors (too high tech you won't get there) yeah that can work. It's really hard to get up enough larva production in time though so just massing roaches is usually the easiest and most reliable way to stop this.
On December 22 2015 17:06 straycat wrote: 3 hatch b4 pool - is that a general safe build in lotv? (havent played since ~april). or is it just meta-safe, so to speak?
Yep. If you really can't get the hang of reacting to pylon rushes or cannons feel free to go hatch-pool-hatch, it's almost as efficient as 3-hatch before pool.
On December 22 2015 14:46 Merkmerk wrote: Really struggling against toss, I'm plat but the most braindead a-moving gold toss are stomping me with ease.
The problem I'm having is all of the tricks - if they open stargate harass and you're not ready for it, you're fucked. If they do a timing push with stalker immortal you're fucked. Dts, I've even seen toss get early tempests supported by stalkers on only 3 base and harass/push with those
The only thing that has worked so far is lurker defense - lings and hydras get blown up by colossus, storm and disruptor
I scout with sac'ing overlords but until speed they are easily killed by a pylon overcharge.
No early aggression of any kind seems possible thanks to pylon overcharge and the hard countering of lings by adepts or roaches by...anything
Sounds like you're having a really tough time. It's very easy to get tilted and emotional and just feel like anything Protoss will do will beat you.I'd focus internally on my own execution if i were you. Just make sure you focus on macroing a lot better, locking down your early build order and adept defence, dropping 2-3 safety spores at ~3:45 each game and you should be in a good spot. at 5:00 you should have roach warren, ling speed and lair on the way, an evo down and possibly starting to upgrade and 50+ drones.
For scouting try to not path over pylons and you'll find you can scout quite well. As pointed out in the guide you can check the natural gases every game and that tells you a lot.
Hi all. I've been struggling against Protoss air + HTs. First of all, I dont know if it's sensible letting P take expansions for free and mass air units (even if you play extremely greedy). Second, how should be engaged that kind of army? Parasitic bomb is pretty good against air, but vipers get hard countered by HT's... I've tried base racing whenever the P fleet leaves home, but it seems to me a bit of a coinflip due to high count of cannons and mass recall available. Any good adivce?
Hey PiG, fantastic guide! Thanks for the great streams and advice.
Been trying out this build and really liking it. The only move that toss makes that screws with me is when they make a medium-sized (6-8) pheonix fleet (typically out of 1 stargate) and start flying around and screwing with me. I typically like to drop 1 spore per base, pump out a few extra queens and chase them around transfusing as I go. But inevitably the pheonixes will pick off a few overlords, some transferring drones and the occasional stray queen.
Do you think it's best to skip the spire in this case, lay a hydra den instead and get a contingent of 8 hydras or so? This eliminates the easy transition to broods but does open up lurker play. The other thought would be to get the infester energy upgrade and try to land a fungle.
EPT
