The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 49

On November 30 2016 22:09 Aocowns wrote:
are hydra timings supposed to win against carrier rushes off of 2 oracles?

On December 05 2016 15:52 redloser wrote:


There are mainly two roach centric BOs in ZvZ, 1) 2 base fast roach speed and 2) 3 base roach ling. For 1) case, skip ling speed(cancel it after blocking the ling scout), tech to lair, and get warren + evos around 3:00 at the natural ramp and block it with queens to prevent ling allins. Drone up until 41 drones, get 2 gases at 3:20, get roach speed and +1range then expand as you get ~10 roaches for pressure. If you go for fast 3 base, get ling speed and you must throw down RW at no later than 2:45, since you cant block the 3rd with evos and queens. Build 3 to 4 roaches, get more roach/ling if you scout the opponent goes for ling/bling allin. Afterwards, get 2 more gases ~3:50ish if you go for roach/ling/bling bust, or if the opponent goes for roaches as well, tech to lair and get more gases after you saturate 2 bases.

On December 08 2016 22:50 bulya wrote:

I'm diamond, so may be you want some masters help, but ZvT is currently my best MU (was my second best before the patch).
I open Pool Hatch Gas (safe enough vs reapers), going for a pair of lings at 18 supply which are rallied so that they avoid the reaper (if there is one), at best get to snipe the SCV building the CC (if he goes rax gas CC or gas rax CC), and get some scouting info (the CC is ready if it was CC first, if it wasn't I can take a glimps of the second structure he is going for, if its a 1 base there will be more structures behind the rax and no CC, and if its a proxy it will also tell me).
Behind that I'm massing queens, using my initial queen to defend vs the reaper, and I just mass drones (no more lings. it compensate for the later natural), and I'm going for ovie speed so I don't pull out of gas, since its quite important whether its mech or bio (determines the upgrades I'm going for and whether the bane nest is essential). If I see mech (active reactor on a factory, or multiple factories or a quick armory), then I'm not rushing a lair but rather going for more queens, drones and a round of lings when ling speed finish). If its bio I can go for a faster lair (4:00 - 4:30) a and a bane nest. If its 2-1-1 (2 rax, factory and star port, tech lab on a rax active), then no units are in need (apart for some lings so that the third can be taken if the queens didn't handle the reaper or the drone didn't manage to sneak there), and only at 4:30 I make about 12 pairs of lings, which is enough with the help of the queens (the queens target the medivacs, the lings deal with the marines).
If I see mech (especially 1 base mech), then I mass queens (1 base means I cut drones in favor of queens), make some lings and the goal is to sandwitch the helions/cyclones between the queens and the lings (the lings come from behind when he attacks). Some safety spores are useful because banshees or liberators are a followup to the hellions/cyclones. If I see mech with tech labs rather then reactors then I can go for a quicker lair less queens quick single evo (for missile upgrades). Followed by hydras. If he pushes with tanks/thors then lings must be in place so that they can come from behind and attack the tanks the moment he pushes while the tanks are sieged (the queens and the transfuses can soak up the initial tank damage so that the lings can catch the tanks behind, and if I have hydras by this time they are protected as there are queens in front of them).

Regarding the third, then usually its about 3:30 (ling speed finishes and I can catch the reaper with 4-6 lings). If I see a natural with my first pair of lings, especially CC first (which means he usually skips the reaper), I can go for the third faster.

Mid game vs bio I go for ling bane queens first, mixing some hydras there, and transitioning to the late game according to his tech choice. (for example, Ultras aren't the go to if he has a lot of tanks/libs, but BLs or vipers can help with that, also Ultras without good fungals feels weak now, Ultras is a good late game just in case he mixes mines with his bio medivacs)
The upgrades are melee and carapace, as the carapace nullifies his infantry weapons (good for all units) and most of my army is lings and banes, Lair is at 4:00 - 4:30, bane nest at the same time, a single evo can be put earlier, but if you go double evos they are put at the same time as the lair. No need to rush any gas before the lair, a singe gas is enough.
I'm not going for a mutalisks, so the spire is skipped and built only if there is a need for corruptors or the plan is BLs.
Vs bio the time for the Hive is when I manage to push him back so that I can capitalize on that. The rule is to have at least 4 bases and some freedom before I go for a Hive.

With mech, the mid game is hydra ling queens (banes only if its a 1 base hellbat push, otherwise the bane nest is not in a need), later there are two options: Either I rush vipers and may be BLs later (some corruptors are essential if he has an air fleet of vikings or libs), or I'm trying to crack him during the mid game with a combination of hydras and swarm hosts.
My experience tells me that a way of losing it is letting him expand and get the ultimate air fleet (a lot of ravens), engaging a lot of tanks without anything to soak up the initial damage, not scouting a lack of third which means units must be prepared earlier, or he manage to put me behind in the early game.
If its a 1 base push the lair can be delayed, but if he goes greedy the lair can be same as vs bio (4:00 - 4:30), the evo can be put earlier as only 1 upgrade is essential. Again, no need to rush any gas, a singe gas is enough on hatch tech.
Hive is more important as vipers are a good counter to mech, but I must first counter his early pushes, and at that point queens are in a higher priority than Hive tech. The moment he start a more immobile army I can go for a Hive.
Since I have ovie speed from the very beginning (unless it was a 1 base mech opener, which make me skip the ovie speed in favor of queens), I see if he is transitioning towards tanks, which is a point Hive turns to be a higher priority. But a forth base is more important then a Hive.

Both bio and mech require good creep spread. Vs mech I bring the queens with me to the front line when I have enough hydras and vipers they can also soak the initial tank shots if he pushes with tanks, and vs bio its crucial for the queens to be mobile, as he can multi drop, which is also why the medivacs are more important then the marines.