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The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 49

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
December 01 2016 14:01 GMT
#961
On November 30 2016 22:09 Aocowns wrote:
are hydra timings supposed to win against carrier rushes off of 2 oracles?

Not anymore, no.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Haku
Profile Joined August 2013
Germany550 Posts
December 02 2016 11:08 GMT
#962
So i am a Master Zerg on EU Ladder and looking for some advice.
The big difference i see between me and superior players (like high Master or GM) seems to be, that the moment i get thrown off my build (thorugh an allin or something) what happens relativly frequently on the ladder through allins, i am fucking up all my timings.
Many builds and stuff use either times or supply to specify certain timings.
For an example, if i wanna go roaches in ZvZ, what time do i add the roach warren or more extractors and stuff like that?
Is there any good guide on that?
Most of the time its more like 1 Gas into 2 Base mineral saturation into Second Gas + Roach Warren. Stuff like that.
Anyone can help me out?
Jaedong | Life | MKP | PartinG | LosirA | ByuN | TaeJa | TY | TLO | Bomber | HerO | Rotti | Dark | Stephano | Maru | Ragnarok | MC | IdrA | Serral | Creator | Bunny | INnoVation | Liquid | Prime | JinAir
Reki
Profile Joined August 2010
Philippines89 Posts
December 03 2016 07:36 GMT
#963
This carrier meta is quite nostaligic. I've been successful lately in asia dia2 airtoss getting early 3rds, 4ths, droning to a hundred, spending all gas on early upgrades and tech and just ling flooding his 3rds and 4ths . When he moves out, you defend with vipers that just came out and about fiddy spores. Goal is 3/3 corruptors with some ultra ling bane to a-move the high templars and whatever 2/0 ground army he has that protects them so that they can't storm & feeback your corruptors and vipers. Oh and about fiddy more spores to use while sieging.

Yeah, hots-style turtleshit that is as exciting as watching creep spreading.

Using hydra against air was just a meme.
IcemanAsi
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel681 Posts
December 03 2016 11:34 GMT
#964
On December 03 2016 16:36 Reki wrote:
This carrier meta is quite nostaligic. I've been successful lately in asia dia2 airtoss getting early 3rds, 4ths, droning to a hundred, spending all gas on early upgrades and tech and just ling flooding his 3rds and 4ths . When he moves out, you defend with vipers that just came out and about fiddy spores. Goal is 3/3 corruptors with some ultra ling bane to a-move the high templars and whatever 2/0 ground army he has that protects them so that they can't storm & feeback your corruptors and vipers. Oh and about fiddy more spores to use while sieging.

Yeah, hots-style turtleshit that is as exciting as watching creep spreading.

Using hydra against air was just a meme.


Sounds good, got a replay?
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
December 03 2016 20:51 GMT
#965
On December 02 2016 20:08 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i am a Master Zerg on EU Ladder and looking for some advice.
The big difference i see between me and superior players (like high Master or GM) seems to be, that the moment i get thrown off my build (thorugh an allin or something) what happens relativly frequently on the ladder through allins, i am fucking up all my timings.
Many builds and stuff use either times or supply to specify certain timings.
For an example, if i wanna go roaches in ZvZ, what time do i add the roach warren or more extractors and stuff like that?
Is there any good guide on that?
Most of the time its more like 1 Gas into 2 Base mineral saturation into Second Gas + Roach Warren. Stuff like that.
Anyone can help me out?


Could try PM'ing Blade555, Snute, PiG, they are all extremely cool and extremely helpful at least when I was stuck, once you get to the top 2% the average forum person is probably below you in player skill anyways.

If I'm screwing up throwing up their names to be PM'ed I can delete this
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1721 Posts
December 05 2016 06:52 GMT
#966
On December 02 2016 20:08 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i am a Master Zerg on EU Ladder and looking for some advice.
The big difference i see between me and superior players (like high Master or GM) seems to be, that the moment i get thrown off my build (thorugh an allin or something) what happens relativly frequently on the ladder through allins, i am fucking up all my timings.
Many builds and stuff use either times or supply to specify certain timings.
For an example, if i wanna go roaches in ZvZ, what time do i add the roach warren or more extractors and stuff like that?
Is there any good guide on that?
Most of the time its more like 1 Gas into 2 Base mineral saturation into Second Gas + Roach Warren. Stuff like that.
Anyone can help me out?


There are mainly two roach centric BOs in ZvZ, 1) 2 base fast roach speed and 2) 3 base roach ling. For 1) case, skip ling speed(cancel it after blocking the ling scout), tech to lair, and get warren + evos around 3:00 at the natural ramp and block it with queens to prevent ling allins. Drone up until 41 drones, get 2 gases at 3:20, get roach speed and +1range then expand as you get ~10 roaches for pressure. If you go for fast 3 base, get ling speed and you must throw down RW at no later than 2:45, since you cant block the 3rd with evos and queens. Build 3 to 4 roaches, get more roach/ling if you scout the opponent goes for ling/bling allin. Afterwards, get 2 more gases ~3:50ish if you go for roach/ling/bling bust, or if the opponent goes for roaches as well, tech to lair and get more gases after you saturate 2 bases.
Railgan
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland1507 Posts
December 05 2016 14:40 GMT
#967
On December 05 2016 15:52 redloser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2016 20:08 EXRNaRa wrote:
So i am a Master Zerg on EU Ladder and looking for some advice.
The big difference i see between me and superior players (like high Master or GM) seems to be, that the moment i get thrown off my build (thorugh an allin or something) what happens relativly frequently on the ladder through allins, i am fucking up all my timings.
Many builds and stuff use either times or supply to specify certain timings.
For an example, if i wanna go roaches in ZvZ, what time do i add the roach warren or more extractors and stuff like that?
Is there any good guide on that?
Most of the time its more like 1 Gas into 2 Base mineral saturation into Second Gas + Roach Warren. Stuff like that.
Anyone can help me out?


There are mainly two roach centric BOs in ZvZ, 1) 2 base fast roach speed and 2) 3 base roach ling. For 1) case, skip ling speed(cancel it after blocking the ling scout), tech to lair, and get warren + evos around 3:00 at the natural ramp and block it with queens to prevent ling allins. Drone up until 41 drones, get 2 gases at 3:20, get roach speed and +1range then expand as you get ~10 roaches for pressure. If you go for fast 3 base, get ling speed and you must throw down RW at no later than 2:45, since you cant block the 3rd with evos and queens. Build 3 to 4 roaches, get more roach/ling if you scout the opponent goes for ling/bling allin. Afterwards, get 2 more gases ~3:50ish if you go for roach/ling/bling bust, or if the opponent goes for roaches as well, tech to lair and get more gases after you saturate 2 bases.

I believe it's impossible to hold 3 base Ling Bane with 3 base Ling Roach.

Banelings are simply too good vs Lings and also quite decent vs Roaches (in certain scenarios).

I advice against going Ling -> Roach but rather Ling -> Bane -> Roach
Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc
Haku
Profile Joined August 2013
Germany550 Posts
December 07 2016 14:50 GMT
#968
I think i misexplained myself. In the ZvZ example i was referring to what happens when you get thrown of your regular build through allins/harass etc.
How do you (Pro´s) find their gas timings and so on?
Jaedong | Life | MKP | PartinG | LosirA | ByuN | TaeJa | TY | TLO | Bomber | HerO | Rotti | Dark | Stephano | Maru | Ragnarok | MC | IdrA | Serral | Creator | Bunny | INnoVation | Liquid | Prime | JinAir
Swisslink
Profile Joined March 2011
2953 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-08 10:54:41
December 08 2016 10:50 GMT
#969
On November 30 2016 20:40 bulya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2016 17:48 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
It's weird, for some reason I have massive troubles playing vs bio after the patch, went from my best matchup to my worst.

What has changed?
The map pool? The builds of your terran opponents?

May be you play people who lost a lot of MMR due to the new patch... (I lost about 200 MMR because I wanted to make new builds which involve the new SH, and on the way lost to many cheeses which people threw out on me on the new maps).

If you play the roach ravager style vs bio I think its power is less effective without infestors.
I switched to ling bane before the patch so the patch didn't effect my play vs bio that much (banes even got buffed in the mid game).


Well, I got the same problem as the original poster: ZvBio was my best matchup, while I sucked against Mech. Now my ZvT in general is on an all-time low.

The problem with Ling/Bane for me is, that there are specific midgame timings I'm just not prepared for. Either Bio+Tank, or even some liberators just wreck me, because I seem unable to scout what's coming and when it is coming. And if I only just see the push coming, when the terran moves out, he just wrecks me.

-> how do you open in ZvT? (I switched away from Hatch first, because I kept losing to 3-rax Reaper. If someone has a general idea how to hold this cheese with hatch first - some advice would be appreciated as well.)
-> When do you take your 3rd?
-> What are your usual Bling-Nest/Lair/(spire) timings?

I'm mostly playing on improvisation lately, because I lack pretty much every timing since the patch. My banelings just get wrecked by Tanks so hard and if I try to go for Roach/Ravager(/or Hydras), they just drop me to oblivion.



bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
December 08 2016 13:50 GMT
#970
On December 08 2016 19:50 Swisslink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2016 20:40 bulya wrote:
On November 30 2016 17:48 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
It's weird, for some reason I have massive troubles playing vs bio after the patch, went from my best matchup to my worst.

What has changed?
The map pool? The builds of your terran opponents?

May be you play people who lost a lot of MMR due to the new patch... (I lost about 200 MMR because I wanted to make new builds which involve the new SH, and on the way lost to many cheeses which people threw out on me on the new maps).

If you play the roach ravager style vs bio I think its power is less effective without infestors.
I switched to ling bane before the patch so the patch didn't effect my play vs bio that much (banes even got buffed in the mid game).


Well, I got the same problem as the original poster: ZvBio was my best matchup, while I sucked against Mech. Now my ZvT in general is on an all-time low.

The problem with Ling/Bane for me is, that there are specific midgame timings I'm just not prepared for. Either Bio+Tank, or even some liberators just wreck me, because I seem unable to scout what's coming and when it is coming. And if I only just see the push coming, when the terran moves out, he just wrecks me.

-> how do you open in ZvT? (I switched away from Hatch first, because I kept losing to 3-rax Reaper. If someone has a general idea how to hold this cheese with hatch first - some advice would be appreciated as well.)
-> When do you take your 3rd?
-> What are your usual Bling-Nest/Lair/(spire) timings?

I'm mostly playing on improvisation lately, because I lack pretty much every timing since the patch. My banelings just get wrecked by Tanks so hard and if I try to go for Roach/Ravager(/or Hydras), they just drop me to oblivion.




I'm diamond, so may be you want some masters help, but ZvT is currently my best MU (was my second best before the patch).
I open Pool Hatch Gas (safe enough vs reapers), going for a pair of lings at 18 supply which are rallied so that they avoid the reaper (if there is one), at best get to snipe the SCV building the CC (if he goes rax gas CC or gas rax CC), and get some scouting info (the CC is ready if it was CC first, if it wasn't I can take a glimps of the second structure he is going for, if its a 1 base there will be more structures behind the rax and no CC, and if its a proxy it will also tell me).
Behind that I'm massing queens, using my initial queen to defend vs the reaper, and I just mass drones (no more lings. it compensate for the later natural), and I'm going for ovie speed so I don't pull out of gas, since its quite important whether its mech or bio (determines the upgrades I'm going for and whether the bane nest is essential). If I see mech (active reactor on a factory, or multiple factories or a quick armory), then I'm not rushing a lair but rather going for more queens, drones and a round of lings when ling speed finish). If its bio I can go for a faster lair (4:00 - 4:30) a and a bane nest. If its 2-1-1 (2 rax, factory and star port, tech lab on a rax active), then no units are in need (apart for some lings so that the third can be taken if the queens didn't handle the reaper or the drone didn't manage to sneak there), and only at 4:30 I make about 12 pairs of lings, which is enough with the help of the queens (the queens target the medivacs, the lings deal with the marines).
If I see mech (especially 1 base mech), then I mass queens (1 base means I cut drones in favor of queens), make some lings and the goal is to sandwitch the helions/cyclones between the queens and the lings (the lings come from behind when he attacks). Some safety spores are useful because banshees or liberators are a followup to the hellions/cyclones. If I see mech with tech labs rather then reactors then I can go for a quicker lair less queens quick single evo (for missile upgrades). Followed by hydras. If he pushes with tanks/thors then lings must be in place so that they can come from behind and attack the tanks the moment he pushes while the tanks are sieged (the queens and the transfuses can soak up the initial tank damage so that the lings can catch the tanks behind, and if I have hydras by this time they are protected as there are queens in front of them).

Regarding the third, then usually its about 3:30 (ling speed finishes and I can catch the reaper with 4-6 lings). If I see a natural with my first pair of lings, especially CC first (which means he usually skips the reaper), I can go for the third faster.

Mid game vs bio I go for ling bane queens first, mixing some hydras there, and transitioning to the late game according to his tech choice. (for example, Ultras aren't the go to if he has a lot of tanks/libs, but BLs or vipers can help with that, also Ultras without good fungals feels weak now, Ultras is a good late game just in case he mixes mines with his bio medivacs)
The upgrades are melee and carapace, as the carapace nullifies his infantry weapons (good for all units) and most of my army is lings and banes, Lair is at 4:00 - 4:30, bane nest at the same time, a single evo can be put earlier, but if you go double evos they are put at the same time as the lair. No need to rush any gas before the lair, a singe gas is enough.
I'm not going for a mutalisks, so the spire is skipped and built only if there is a need for corruptors or the plan is BLs.
Vs bio the time for the Hive is when I manage to push him back so that I can capitalize on that. The rule is to have at least 4 bases and some freedom before I go for a Hive.

With mech, the mid game is hydra ling queens (banes only if its a 1 base hellbat push, otherwise the bane nest is not in a need), later there are two options: Either I rush vipers and may be BLs later (some corruptors are essential if he has an air fleet of vikings or libs), or I'm trying to crack him during the mid game with a combination of hydras and swarm hosts.
My experience tells me that a way of losing it is letting him expand and get the ultimate air fleet (a lot of ravens), engaging a lot of tanks without anything to soak up the initial damage, not scouting a lack of third which means units must be prepared earlier, or he manage to put me behind in the early game.
If its a 1 base push the lair can be delayed, but if he goes greedy the lair can be same as vs bio (4:00 - 4:30), the evo can be put earlier as only 1 upgrade is essential. Again, no need to rush any gas, a singe gas is enough on hatch tech.
Hive is more important as vipers are a good counter to mech, but I must first counter his early pushes, and at that point queens are in a higher priority than Hive tech. The moment he start a more immobile army I can go for a Hive.
Since I have ovie speed from the very beginning (unless it was a 1 base mech opener, which make me skip the ovie speed in favor of queens), I see if he is transitioning towards tanks, which is a point Hive turns to be a higher priority. But a forth base is more important then a Hive.

Both bio and mech require good creep spread. Vs mech I bring the queens with me to the front line when I have enough hydras and vipers they can also soak the initial tank shots if he pushes with tanks, and vs bio its crucial for the queens to be mobile, as he can multi drop, which is also why the medivacs are more important then the marines.
Destruktor
Profile Joined June 2013
Spain60 Posts
December 09 2016 09:30 GMT
#971
Hi! How can I deal with a mech army like mass thor, some hellbat and tanks? I usually can see my opponent massing thors but I can't do nothing agains them. Thanks
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
December 09 2016 21:03 GMT
#972
Roach/ravager with burrowed-movement should be effective against their army through the midgame, discouraging them from moving out. At that point, or if they're only turtling you add vipers and either ultras or broodlords (and then usually add the other of the two later).
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
reapsen
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany559 Posts
December 12 2016 12:54 GMT
#973
Hi,

i (platinum league) recently teamed up with a random masters zerg for some archon-fun. He let me do the macro first, so i went my usual 17 Gas, 17 Pool, 18 Hatch.

He told me that this is a suboptimal opener and that he goes 3 hatch before pool in everything instead ZvZ.

Is 3 hatch before pool really viable regarding all those reaper / adept openers??
I feel i need that 17g17p otherwise i die in the first 3 minutes of the game ... :-(
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
December 12 2016 14:09 GMT
#974
On December 12 2016 21:54 reapsen wrote:
Hi,

i (platinum league) recently teamed up with a random masters zerg for some archon-fun. He let me do the macro first, so i went my usual 17 Gas, 17 Pool, 18 Hatch.

He told me that this is a suboptimal opener and that he goes 3 hatch before pool in everything instead ZvZ.

Is 3 hatch before pool really viable regarding all those reaper / adept openers??
I feel i need that 17g17p otherwise i die in the first 3 minutes of the game ... :-(


I guess it depends how do you want to play, and whether you are able to defend with small amount of units.
When I was platinum I didn't have any problems with 17 hatch 18 gas 17 pool. I could defend the early reaper (3 rax reapers weren't that good on the map pool then, and it isn't that good on the current map pool), as well as the adept or even double adept. All came to ovie scout what is going on (for example if 2 hellions followed the reaper then more lings had to be done, and so on).
The 17 gas 17 pool has its own advantage, but its a more aggressive opener, and if you don't use it for some aggression, harass, or at least non direct eco damage, then a hatch first opener is way better for your eco.

3 hatch before pool (or 17 hatch 18 pool 17 hatch - note no gas at first) is a very economic opener, and if you can scout and defend what is coming then its a great way to play.
I'm not going for a 3 hatch before pool (I'm trying out the 17 hatch 18 pool 17 hatch from time to time), and sometimes I open pool first so that I can poke with a pair of lings, delay the expansion of the terran and get some scouting (lately terrans aren't that easily read, so scouting is essential).
But pool before hatch means I must do some damage and be more aggressive early on, unless my opponent picked an even more aggressive opener.

But if you two play an economic style and he can defend what is coming, then 3 hatch before pool can suit you.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-12 16:26:15
December 12 2016 16:25 GMT
#975
3 Hatch before pool can be done versus Protoss, I wouldn't try it versus Terran. You will autolose versus 3 rax reaper and even the standard reaper will likely do more damage than you gain economically from opening triple hatch.

You can definitely open hatch first in all matchups though, surviving agression is just a matter of getting better at the game.
I think esports is pretty nice.
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
December 12 2016 17:04 GMT
#976
you can even 3 hatch in zvz as a blindcounter to hatch first but obviously youre 90% dead if your opponent does any pool first aggression
TL+ Member
PharaphobiaSC
Profile Joined April 2016
Czech Republic457 Posts
December 15 2016 11:24 GMT
#977
On December 08 2016 22:50 bulya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2016 19:50 Swisslink wrote:
On November 30 2016 20:40 bulya wrote:
On November 30 2016 17:48 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
It's weird, for some reason I have massive troubles playing vs bio after the patch, went from my best matchup to my worst.

What has changed?
The map pool? The builds of your terran opponents?

May be you play people who lost a lot of MMR due to the new patch... (I lost about 200 MMR because I wanted to make new builds which involve the new SH, and on the way lost to many cheeses which people threw out on me on the new maps).

If you play the roach ravager style vs bio I think its power is less effective without infestors.
I switched to ling bane before the patch so the patch didn't effect my play vs bio that much (banes even got buffed in the mid game).


Well, I got the same problem as the original poster: ZvBio was my best matchup, while I sucked against Mech. Now my ZvT in general is on an all-time low.

The problem with Ling/Bane for me is, that there are specific midgame timings I'm just not prepared for. Either Bio+Tank, or even some liberators just wreck me, because I seem unable to scout what's coming and when it is coming. And if I only just see the push coming, when the terran moves out, he just wrecks me.

-> how do you open in ZvT? (I switched away from Hatch first, because I kept losing to 3-rax Reaper. If someone has a general idea how to hold this cheese with hatch first - some advice would be appreciated as well.)
-> When do you take your 3rd?
-> What are your usual Bling-Nest/Lair/(spire) timings?

I'm mostly playing on improvisation lately, because I lack pretty much every timing since the patch. My banelings just get wrecked by Tanks so hard and if I try to go for Roach/Ravager(/or Hydras), they just drop me to oblivion.




I'm diamond, so may be you want some masters help, but ZvT is currently my best MU (was my second best before the patch).
I open Pool Hatch Gas (safe enough vs reapers), going for a pair of lings at 18 supply which are rallied so that they avoid the reaper (if there is one), at best get to snipe the SCV building the CC (if he goes rax gas CC or gas rax CC), and get some scouting info (the CC is ready if it was CC first, if it wasn't I can take a glimps of the second structure he is going for, if its a 1 base there will be more structures behind the rax and no CC, and if its a proxy it will also tell me).
Behind that I'm massing queens, using my initial queen to defend vs the reaper, and I just mass drones (no more lings. it compensate for the later natural), and I'm going for ovie speed so I don't pull out of gas, since its quite important whether its mech or bio (determines the upgrades I'm going for and whether the bane nest is essential). If I see mech (active reactor on a factory, or multiple factories or a quick armory), then I'm not rushing a lair but rather going for more queens, drones and a round of lings when ling speed finish). If its bio I can go for a faster lair (4:00 - 4:30) a and a bane nest. If its 2-1-1 (2 rax, factory and star port, tech lab on a rax active), then no units are in need (apart for some lings so that the third can be taken if the queens didn't handle the reaper or the drone didn't manage to sneak there), and only at 4:30 I make about 12 pairs of lings, which is enough with the help of the queens (the queens target the medivacs, the lings deal with the marines).
If I see mech (especially 1 base mech), then I mass queens (1 base means I cut drones in favor of queens), make some lings and the goal is to sandwitch the helions/cyclones between the queens and the lings (the lings come from behind when he attacks). Some safety spores are useful because banshees or liberators are a followup to the hellions/cyclones. If I see mech with tech labs rather then reactors then I can go for a quicker lair less queens quick single evo (for missile upgrades). Followed by hydras. If he pushes with tanks/thors then lings must be in place so that they can come from behind and attack the tanks the moment he pushes while the tanks are sieged (the queens and the transfuses can soak up the initial tank damage so that the lings can catch the tanks behind, and if I have hydras by this time they are protected as there are queens in front of them).

Regarding the third, then usually its about 3:30 (ling speed finishes and I can catch the reaper with 4-6 lings). If I see a natural with my first pair of lings, especially CC first (which means he usually skips the reaper), I can go for the third faster.

Mid game vs bio I go for ling bane queens first, mixing some hydras there, and transitioning to the late game according to his tech choice. (for example, Ultras aren't the go to if he has a lot of tanks/libs, but BLs or vipers can help with that, also Ultras without good fungals feels weak now, Ultras is a good late game just in case he mixes mines with his bio medivacs)
The upgrades are melee and carapace, as the carapace nullifies his infantry weapons (good for all units) and most of my army is lings and banes, Lair is at 4:00 - 4:30, bane nest at the same time, a single evo can be put earlier, but if you go double evos they are put at the same time as the lair. No need to rush any gas before the lair, a singe gas is enough.
I'm not going for a mutalisks, so the spire is skipped and built only if there is a need for corruptors or the plan is BLs.
Vs bio the time for the Hive is when I manage to push him back so that I can capitalize on that. The rule is to have at least 4 bases and some freedom before I go for a Hive.

With mech, the mid game is hydra ling queens (banes only if its a 1 base hellbat push, otherwise the bane nest is not in a need), later there are two options: Either I rush vipers and may be BLs later (some corruptors are essential if he has an air fleet of vikings or libs), or I'm trying to crack him during the mid game with a combination of hydras and swarm hosts.
My experience tells me that a way of losing it is letting him expand and get the ultimate air fleet (a lot of ravens), engaging a lot of tanks without anything to soak up the initial damage, not scouting a lack of third which means units must be prepared earlier, or he manage to put me behind in the early game.
If its a 1 base push the lair can be delayed, but if he goes greedy the lair can be same as vs bio (4:00 - 4:30), the evo can be put earlier as only 1 upgrade is essential. Again, no need to rush any gas, a singe gas is enough on hatch tech.
Hive is more important as vipers are a good counter to mech, but I must first counter his early pushes, and at that point queens are in a higher priority than Hive tech. The moment he start a more immobile army I can go for a Hive.
Since I have ovie speed from the very beginning (unless it was a 1 base mech opener, which make me skip the ovie speed in favor of queens), I see if he is transitioning towards tanks, which is a point Hive turns to be a higher priority. But a forth base is more important then a Hive.

Both bio and mech require good creep spread. Vs mech I bring the queens with me to the front line when I have enough hydras and vipers they can also soak the initial tank shots if he pushes with tanks, and vs bio its crucial for the queens to be mobile, as he can multi drop, which is also why the medivacs are more important then the marines.


Can u provide a replay of your ling bane queen to hydra vs bio? And one vs mech aswell ? I would like to see how it works now ;o

We BW comp boys? :0
twitch.tv/pharaphobia
bulya
Profile Joined February 2016
Israel386 Posts
December 16 2016 15:52 GMT
#978
On December 15 2016 20:24 PharaphobiaSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2016 22:50 bulya wrote:
On December 08 2016 19:50 Swisslink wrote:
On November 30 2016 20:40 bulya wrote:
On November 30 2016 17:48 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
It's weird, for some reason I have massive troubles playing vs bio after the patch, went from my best matchup to my worst.

What has changed?
The map pool? The builds of your terran opponents?

May be you play people who lost a lot of MMR due to the new patch... (I lost about 200 MMR because I wanted to make new builds which involve the new SH, and on the way lost to many cheeses which people threw out on me on the new maps).

If you play the roach ravager style vs bio I think its power is less effective without infestors.
I switched to ling bane before the patch so the patch didn't effect my play vs bio that much (banes even got buffed in the mid game).


Well, I got the same problem as the original poster: ZvBio was my best matchup, while I sucked against Mech. Now my ZvT in general is on an all-time low.

The problem with Ling/Bane for me is, that there are specific midgame timings I'm just not prepared for. Either Bio+Tank, or even some liberators just wreck me, because I seem unable to scout what's coming and when it is coming. And if I only just see the push coming, when the terran moves out, he just wrecks me.

-> how do you open in ZvT? (I switched away from Hatch first, because I kept losing to 3-rax Reaper. If someone has a general idea how to hold this cheese with hatch first - some advice would be appreciated as well.)
-> When do you take your 3rd?
-> What are your usual Bling-Nest/Lair/(spire) timings?

I'm mostly playing on improvisation lately, because I lack pretty much every timing since the patch. My banelings just get wrecked by Tanks so hard and if I try to go for Roach/Ravager(/or Hydras), they just drop me to oblivion.




I'm diamond, so may be you want some masters help, but ZvT is currently my best MU (was my second best before the patch).
I open Pool Hatch Gas (safe enough vs reapers), going for a pair of lings at 18 supply which are rallied so that they avoid the reaper (if there is one), at best get to snipe the SCV building the CC (if he goes rax gas CC or gas rax CC), and get some scouting info (the CC is ready if it was CC first, if it wasn't I can take a glimps of the second structure he is going for, if its a 1 base there will be more structures behind the rax and no CC, and if its a proxy it will also tell me).
Behind that I'm massing queens, using my initial queen to defend vs the reaper, and I just mass drones (no more lings. it compensate for the later natural), and I'm going for ovie speed so I don't pull out of gas, since its quite important whether its mech or bio (determines the upgrades I'm going for and whether the bane nest is essential). If I see mech (active reactor on a factory, or multiple factories or a quick armory), then I'm not rushing a lair but rather going for more queens, drones and a round of lings when ling speed finish). If its bio I can go for a faster lair (4:00 - 4:30) a and a bane nest. If its 2-1-1 (2 rax, factory and star port, tech lab on a rax active), then no units are in need (apart for some lings so that the third can be taken if the queens didn't handle the reaper or the drone didn't manage to sneak there), and only at 4:30 I make about 12 pairs of lings, which is enough with the help of the queens (the queens target the medivacs, the lings deal with the marines).
If I see mech (especially 1 base mech), then I mass queens (1 base means I cut drones in favor of queens), make some lings and the goal is to sandwitch the helions/cyclones between the queens and the lings (the lings come from behind when he attacks). Some safety spores are useful because banshees or liberators are a followup to the hellions/cyclones. If I see mech with tech labs rather then reactors then I can go for a quicker lair less queens quick single evo (for missile upgrades). Followed by hydras. If he pushes with tanks/thors then lings must be in place so that they can come from behind and attack the tanks the moment he pushes while the tanks are sieged (the queens and the transfuses can soak up the initial tank damage so that the lings can catch the tanks behind, and if I have hydras by this time they are protected as there are queens in front of them).

Regarding the third, then usually its about 3:30 (ling speed finishes and I can catch the reaper with 4-6 lings). If I see a natural with my first pair of lings, especially CC first (which means he usually skips the reaper), I can go for the third faster.

Mid game vs bio I go for ling bane queens first, mixing some hydras there, and transitioning to the late game according to his tech choice. (for example, Ultras aren't the go to if he has a lot of tanks/libs, but BLs or vipers can help with that, also Ultras without good fungals feels weak now, Ultras is a good late game just in case he mixes mines with his bio medivacs)
The upgrades are melee and carapace, as the carapace nullifies his infantry weapons (good for all units) and most of my army is lings and banes, Lair is at 4:00 - 4:30, bane nest at the same time, a single evo can be put earlier, but if you go double evos they are put at the same time as the lair. No need to rush any gas before the lair, a singe gas is enough.
I'm not going for a mutalisks, so the spire is skipped and built only if there is a need for corruptors or the plan is BLs.
Vs bio the time for the Hive is when I manage to push him back so that I can capitalize on that. The rule is to have at least 4 bases and some freedom before I go for a Hive.

With mech, the mid game is hydra ling queens (banes only if its a 1 base hellbat push, otherwise the bane nest is not in a need), later there are two options: Either I rush vipers and may be BLs later (some corruptors are essential if he has an air fleet of vikings or libs), or I'm trying to crack him during the mid game with a combination of hydras and swarm hosts.
My experience tells me that a way of losing it is letting him expand and get the ultimate air fleet (a lot of ravens), engaging a lot of tanks without anything to soak up the initial damage, not scouting a lack of third which means units must be prepared earlier, or he manage to put me behind in the early game.
If its a 1 base push the lair can be delayed, but if he goes greedy the lair can be same as vs bio (4:00 - 4:30), the evo can be put earlier as only 1 upgrade is essential. Again, no need to rush any gas, a singe gas is enough on hatch tech.
Hive is more important as vipers are a good counter to mech, but I must first counter his early pushes, and at that point queens are in a higher priority than Hive tech. The moment he start a more immobile army I can go for a Hive.
Since I have ovie speed from the very beginning (unless it was a 1 base mech opener, which make me skip the ovie speed in favor of queens), I see if he is transitioning towards tanks, which is a point Hive turns to be a higher priority. But a forth base is more important then a Hive.

Both bio and mech require good creep spread. Vs mech I bring the queens with me to the front line when I have enough hydras and vipers they can also soak the initial tank shots if he pushes with tanks, and vs bio its crucial for the queens to be mobile, as he can multi drop, which is also why the medivacs are more important then the marines.


Can u provide a replay of your ling bane queen to hydra vs bio? And one vs mech aswell ? I would like to see how it works now ;o

We BW comp boys? :0


After the hydra nerf I find them less useful in the late game (they were outraging unupgraded PFs), so I'm back to queen ling bane into a faster Hive meanwhile. But it seems not as good as in 3.7.1 (ultra nerf, tank buff...), so I'm looking what for else could be done.

Regarding mech, then with the cyclone buff I see more cyclone helion/hellbat pushes, so the games doesn't get though all the stages (I either hold it, which puts me ahead, and it doesn't matter that much what my composition is, or I lose to such a push).

If you want replays of the compositions I described earlier, then they are from the older patch where hydras had 7 range, and cyclones started with 4 range.
I can upload some, but I doubt if it is still useful.

Terrans also developed with some new bio builds (I see the 2-1-1 way less then a few weeks ago).
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
December 16 2016 21:49 GMT
#979
On December 12 2016 21:54 reapsen wrote:
Hi,

i (platinum league) recently teamed up with a random masters zerg for some archon-fun. He let me do the macro first, so i went my usual 17 Gas, 17 Pool, 18 Hatch.

He told me that this is a suboptimal opener and that he goes 3 hatch before pool in everything instead ZvZ.

Is 3 hatch before pool really viable regarding all those reaper / adept openers??
I feel i need that 17g17p otherwise i die in the first 3 minutes of the game ... :-(


I always felt that if you wanted to open 3 hatch it's better on bigger 2 player maps and you have to send out a drone scout immediately to confirm they aren't opening pool/rax/gateway first because if you open 3 hatch no pool and they build any units at all you're pretty much toast.
TequilaMockingbird
Profile Joined February 2013
Germany64 Posts
December 19 2016 19:29 GMT
#980
Guys I had to take a break from the game, just now getting back into it after having played my last games in early May.
ZvT and ZvZ go pretty ok, but I am utterly lost in ZvP with the addition of Carriers and a seemingly completely new Meta.

I used to play fast lurker into ultra with the addition of a spire, but i find none of the old stuff works anymore.
I tried to look for some solid, standard build orders but could mostly find timing attacks and such.

Can anyone point me towards a general, proven build for ZvP ?
Do we still do the stuff Dark did with dropping lings and banes ?

Help much appreciated.

Oh I am (was) high Diamond on EU.
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