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On November 24 2016 19:35 bulya wrote:
I was beaten by mass Ravens yesterday (didn't anticipate them, my scout told me its going to be banshees).
Is there a better way to deal with them other then vipers? (PB or abduct)
basically vipers. ravens are an awful unit and buffing them was the Terran version of buffing the swarm host.
I suppose hydras might actually be good now in conjunction with vipers. Since they can be used effectively.
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Yeah, hydra viper was the composition I though of after the game.
During the game I switched from hydras to corruptors, but id didn't help.
I guess some PBs, or even abducting them 1 by 1 is a good way.
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Oh no you don't want to abduct them one by one unless your opponent has really shit micro. You want to just ruin them with PBs.
That's what makes ravens such an obnoxiously unit. You can't win in one on one fights you just have to annihilate them with AoE.
I've been having a lot of trouble with Terrans that just turtle. I regret my own advice of telling Terrans to just build tanks!
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If they turtle you can take an eco lead, and use either hydra SH combo (throw the locusts, wait till the first shot of the tanks/thors, come with the hydra, and go out before the locust die), or hydra viper (abduct their tanks and other costly units and avoid front on engagements).
Creep is important vs turtle mech.
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Yeah that's basically where I'm at here is I need to scout with my first 8 mutas and say "How many turrets is he making"?
If it's as many as I saw just worry about my tech and economy since he's already damaging himself with this big investment in a ton of turrets around tanks.
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On November 24 2016 22:08 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 19:19 AbouSV wrote:
The weakness of cyclone seems to be its range.
Dark just beat cyclone hellbat with ling ravagers (not engaging with lings unless in a very good position relative to hellbats), and it seemed to work quite well. I posted a clip of the exciting part in the Zerg thread. The engagement was amazing but that was only part of the story. His opponent was building an army off of 1 reactored factory and already had made a 3rd CC. Dark got to two base saturation, completely stopped droning, and made straight ling ravager in response to his opponents opener. After getting an amazing snipe on two hellions at mid map next to a watchtower, he went full in on roaches and walked across the map. Dark was absolutely "all in". If he hadn't gotten damage then he would have been done for with his opponents third CC done and no drones at his third. But he scouted that production consisted of a reactored factory and not two (which he was probably scouting for since there's the all in variant of two reactored factories) and decided to go full on army production and end it there. His opponent did scout that there were no drones at Darks 3rd. That would have been a challenging read to make one day into the patch but the information was there - my opponent is putting nothing into economy. Am I safe if he's going to all in? Obviously he wasn't safe since Dark did all in with some fantastic micro. Had his opponent had another factory pumping siege tanks, a slightly slower 3rd CC, or kept his cyclones behind the hellbats but not separate from them, then Dark would have been in a very ugly spot. I think it's a potential build but it's something you won't see very much outside of high level play. Dark had to instantly make a read on a single reactored factory and make a decision then follow it with top tier micro, or none of it would have worked. The cyclones range was an important factor in why it worked but it doesn't necessarily mean cyclone hellbat openers are bad.
(I'm bringing back this here, since it's more adapted, and we don't want them to know too much about us :D)
It sure is not a bad opener. But the idea of using ravager (neither armoured, nor light), with good range, is a good start.
A defensive variation would be to replace lings by queen to have larvae up for drones I'd say.
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Queens counter raven they can survive shoots and transfuse each other transguse you spores and you can split them ok creep while that just spamm sh into him until he runs out of money and you dont loose anything with mass queend
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On November 25 2016 00:04 DERASTAT wrote:
Queens counter raven they can survive shoots and transfuse each other transguse you spores and you can split them ok creep while that just spamm sh into him until he runs out of money and you dont loose anything with mass queend
I'm massing queens vs terran just like before the patch (for creep, early defense, etc).
With the ravens the porblem was in the late game when the ravens gave him map control (I couldn't engage into them).
On a big map the resources mined and lost is a big issue. He didn't rush into them, opened bio.
I should have made vipers, seems like vipers is the answer to the mech compositions. Its about prioritizing the right units. With the new thors they are higher priority for abduct then tanks, as the can shoot the vipers dead even before the abduct if I try abducting tanks standing behind the Thors.
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Ya mech is giving me so much trouble right now I have no idea how to beat it. Hydra/Viper seems way too fragile to me, you can't eve begin to approach them if they have vikings and tanks. I need to work on my viper control I guess but holy shit this play style is so bad to play against it's not fun at all.
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On November 24 2016 22:42 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 22:08 Probe1 wrote:On November 24 2016 19:19 AbouSV wrote:
The weakness of cyclone seems to be its range.
Dark just beat cyclone hellbat with ling ravagers (not engaging with lings unless in a very good position relative to hellbats), and it seemed to work quite well. I posted a clip of the exciting part in the Zerg thread. https://clips.twitch.tv/qkrfuddn0/GrotesqueLemurFunRunThe engagement was amazing but that was only part of the story. His opponent was building an army off of 1 reactored factory and already had made a 3rd CC. Dark got to two base saturation, completely stopped droning, and made straight ling ravager in response to his opponents opener. After getting an amazing snipe on two hellions at mid map next to a watchtower, he went full in on roaches and walked across the map. Dark was absolutely "all in". If he hadn't gotten damage then he would have been done for with his opponents third CC done and no drones at his third. But he scouted that production consisted of a reactored factory and not two (which he was probably scouting for since there's the all in variant of two reactored factories) and decided to go full on army production and end it there. His opponent did scout that there were no drones at Darks 3rd. That would have been a challenging read to make one day into the patch but the information was there - my opponent is putting nothing into economy. Am I safe if he's going to all in? Obviously he wasn't safe since Dark did all in with some fantastic micro. Had his opponent had another factory pumping siege tanks, a slightly slower 3rd CC, or kept his cyclones behind the hellbats but not separate from them, then Dark would have been in a very ugly spot. I think it's a potential build but it's something you won't see very much outside of high level play. Dark had to instantly make a read on a single reactored factory and make a decision then follow it with top tier micro, or none of it would have worked. The cyclones range was an important factor in why it worked but it doesn't necessarily mean cyclone hellbat openers are bad. (I'm bringing back this here, since it's more adapted, and we don't want them to know too much about us :D) It sure is not a bad opener. But the idea of using ravager (neither armoured, nor light), with good range, is a good start. A defensive variation would be to replace lings by queen to have larvae up for drones I'd say.
I can't say that ravagers are a bad idea because I'm seeing Koreans use them and win with them. But I just don't understand why I should want to use them when there are alternatives that can also effectively harass now.
I liked roach ravager because it was less flimsy than ling bane till ultra. Ling bane muta, SHs, hydras, all these really attractive options that all have super cool uses and none of which relies on getting good biles..
Against that very specific non committed 1 reactor hellion cyclone opener it was really cool and I think it's an excellent response. But except as a response, I just don't see myself wanting to make ravagers.
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On November 25 2016 18:41 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 22:42 AbouSV wrote:On November 24 2016 22:08 Probe1 wrote:On November 24 2016 19:19 AbouSV wrote:
The weakness of cyclone seems to be its range.
Dark just beat cyclone hellbat with ling ravagers (not engaging with lings unless in a very good position relative to hellbats), and it seemed to work quite well. I posted a clip of the exciting part in the Zerg thread. https://clips.twitch.tv/qkrfuddn0/GrotesqueLemurFunRunThe engagement was amazing but that was only part of the story. His opponent was building an army off of 1 reactored factory and already had made a 3rd CC. Dark got to two base saturation, completely stopped droning, and made straight ling ravager in response to his opponents opener. After getting an amazing snipe on two hellions at mid map next to a watchtower, he went full in on roaches and walked across the map. Dark was absolutely "all in". If he hadn't gotten damage then he would have been done for with his opponents third CC done and no drones at his third. But he scouted that production consisted of a reactored factory and not two (which he was probably scouting for since there's the all in variant of two reactored factories) and decided to go full on army production and end it there. His opponent did scout that there were no drones at Darks 3rd. That would have been a challenging read to make one day into the patch but the information was there - my opponent is putting nothing into economy. Am I safe if he's going to all in? Obviously he wasn't safe since Dark did all in with some fantastic micro. Had his opponent had another factory pumping siege tanks, a slightly slower 3rd CC, or kept his cyclones behind the hellbats but not separate from them, then Dark would have been in a very ugly spot. I think it's a potential build but it's something you won't see very much outside of high level play. Dark had to instantly make a read on a single reactored factory and make a decision then follow it with top tier micro, or none of it would have worked. The cyclones range was an important factor in why it worked but it doesn't necessarily mean cyclone hellbat openers are bad. (I'm bringing back this here, since it's more adapted, and we don't want them to know too much about us :D) It sure is not a bad opener. But the idea of using ravager (neither armoured, nor light), with good range, is a good start. A defensive variation would be to replace lings by queen to have larvae up for drones I'd say. I can't say that ravagers are a bad idea because I'm seeing Koreans use them and win with them. But I just don't understand why I should want to use them when there are alternatives that can also effectively harass now. I liked roach ravager because it was less flimsy than ling bane till ultra. Ling bane muta, SHs, hydras, all these really attractive options that all have super cool uses and none of which relies on getting good biles.. Against that very specific non committed 1 reactor hellion cyclone opener it was really cool and I think it's an excellent response. But except as a response, I just don't see myself wanting to make ravagers.
I don't think ravagers are a good answer in the long run either, but just as an immediate answer, just as they may be against 3 rax reaper.
Once lair tech, Hydra have everything more than ravagers, especially now :p
(I don't really count the biles, because they are not self sufficient except in ZvZ maybe)
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On November 25 2016 20:23 AbouSV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2016 18:41 Probe1 wrote:On November 24 2016 22:42 AbouSV wrote:On November 24 2016 22:08 Probe1 wrote:On November 24 2016 19:19 AbouSV wrote:
The weakness of cyclone seems to be its range.
Dark just beat cyclone hellbat with ling ravagers (not engaging with lings unless in a very good position relative to hellbats), and it seemed to work quite well. I posted a clip of the exciting part in the Zerg thread. https://clips.twitch.tv/qkrfuddn0/GrotesqueLemurFunRunThe engagement was amazing but that was only part of the story. His opponent was building an army off of 1 reactored factory and already had made a 3rd CC. Dark got to two base saturation, completely stopped droning, and made straight ling ravager in response to his opponents opener. After getting an amazing snipe on two hellions at mid map next to a watchtower, he went full in on roaches and walked across the map. Dark was absolutely "all in". If he hadn't gotten damage then he would have been done for with his opponents third CC done and no drones at his third. But he scouted that production consisted of a reactored factory and not two (which he was probably scouting for since there's the all in variant of two reactored factories) and decided to go full on army production and end it there. His opponent did scout that there were no drones at Darks 3rd. That would have been a challenging read to make one day into the patch but the information was there - my opponent is putting nothing into economy. Am I safe if he's going to all in? Obviously he wasn't safe since Dark did all in with some fantastic micro. Had his opponent had another factory pumping siege tanks, a slightly slower 3rd CC, or kept his cyclones behind the hellbats but not separate from them, then Dark would have been in a very ugly spot. I think it's a potential build but it's something you won't see very much outside of high level play. Dark had to instantly make a read on a single reactored factory and make a decision then follow it with top tier micro, or none of it would have worked. The cyclones range was an important factor in why it worked but it doesn't necessarily mean cyclone hellbat openers are bad. (I'm bringing back this here, since it's more adapted, and we don't want them to know too much about us :D) It sure is not a bad opener. But the idea of using ravager (neither armoured, nor light), with good range, is a good start. A defensive variation would be to replace lings by queen to have larvae up for drones I'd say. I can't say that ravagers are a bad idea because I'm seeing Koreans use them and win with them. But I just don't understand why I should want to use them when there are alternatives that can also effectively harass now. I liked roach ravager because it was less flimsy than ling bane till ultra. Ling bane muta, SHs, hydras, all these really attractive options that all have super cool uses and none of which relies on getting good biles.. Against that very specific non committed 1 reactor hellion cyclone opener it was really cool and I think it's an excellent response. But except as a response, I just don't see myself wanting to make ravagers. I don't think ravagers are a good answer in the long run either, but just as an immediate answer, just as they may be against 3 rax reaper. Once lair tech, Hydra have everything more than ravagers, especially now :p (I don't really count the biles, because they are not self sufficient except in ZvZ maybe)
Oh shit if its 3rax then all bets are off yeah.
Likewise you can get really cheeky like Dark did and use them to bust in if Terrans going super greedy econ. They're good if you have a very specific purpose for them in mind.
And likewise, I've been having a lot of success in ZvP with them on Overgrowth. Protoss have been playing super greedy and anticipating that Zerg will want to get to hydras as quickly as possible. So instead of droning my third, bam, roach ravager all in right after they put down their third. Unless I scout a stargate opener or think they're doing a big two base attack, it's easy money. And god almighty does it make some of them frustrated. Cause they're predicting the meta so hard and think it'll be a hydra macro game.
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On November 24 2016 16:21 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2016 11:33 loginn wrote:
Now that tanks are immobile again, vipers are back. I won every mech ZvT I played by going roach ravager hydra ling and having 4-5 vipers with me.
You can take so many bases versus a meching Terran that even if you lose your vipers after using blinding cloud, the trade can still be very much in your favor. Cyclone hellion is shit vs roach hydra ling, and tanks just don't shoot anyway.
Probably the hardest map to play on vs mech are Echo and Vaani? (I think) because of how small they are, the limited number of expansions and how the expansion pattern allows the mech player to push into you while protecting his bases.
This is mid master level btw
Cool, I'll try that, what are your unit ratios at max? I'be been trying responding to mech with the classic broodlord corruptor but with the thor buff - broodlord nerf you have to be ahead for it to work.
It's probably 60% hydra 20% ling and 20% roaches/ravager mix. The roaches are just meant to be ravagers, but I didn't have the gas/supply to do so.
I've been playing a lot of roach hydra vs T with mixed result vs bio and great result vs mech play. I think if you see bio, maybe going ling bane hydra would be better. using banes and lings to force the terran to split up his army, since hydras will crush any small group of marines
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So far when I identify mech play I just go for a hydra bust before they can get any significant number of tanks/thors out. Most players on EU rely on a lot of Hellions first but don't realize that well-micro'd hydras actually do pretty well against them.
Usually when they've just taken their third and are about to finish saturating it is when I hit - works most of the time so far. It's just a micro war at this point in the game most of the time I win that because most mech players can't micro for shit.
Now ZvP carrier turtle is where I personally have a lot of trouble. Hydra bust doesn't work since they have so many defensive options. Late game I'm usually behind because I tried to do some fancy aggressive stuff. Probably have to play a lot more passively.
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as a protoss, what am i supposed to do now? always 2-base all in? im not one to balance, but this patch has present some serious problems. i know im only diamond but whenever i play a zerg its pretty much an auto loss. i dont get what to do 
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Kill his drones, aoe his army, erase his dignity, break his will, grant him defeat.
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On November 26 2016 11:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:as a protoss, what am i supposed to do now? always 2-base all in? im not one to balance, but this patch has present some serious problems. i know im only diamond but whenever i play a zerg its pretty much an auto loss. i dont get what to do
Honestly I can't say because I'm facing "2" base all ins (protoss takes a third, pretends its a macro game and hopes I don't notice that he's spending all his gas on units then attacks me) nearly every game.
I do think that it's one of those scenarios that Zerg players are very used to where one race develops a new meta and it's extremely strong then a counter meta comes up.
I do hope that Blizzard figures out how to undo the damage they've done to PvZ which was very good previously without fucking up ZvT which is now very good.
For now - AoE not immortals. I've seen macro game Protoss players over-focus on immortal production and not have enough/any AoE. Hydras fucking melt to storms, colossi, disruptors. They can be micro'd now so it's not a guaranteed money shot every time but still.
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On November 26 2016 11:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:as a protoss, what am i supposed to do now? always 2-base all in? im not one to balance, but this patch has present some serious problems. i know im only diamond but whenever i play a zerg its pretty much an auto loss. i dont get what to do
Archon drops ( DT if zerg was stupid enough to skip spores ) into charglots and storm. Make sure to keep your chargelots behind your army, try to absorb the bane with the archons and then storm the hydras and mop up with chargelots.
If the banes are gone chargelots will cut through the hydras like butter.
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On November 26 2016 11:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:as a protoss, what am i supposed to do now? always 2-base all in? im not one to balance, but this patch has present some serious problems. i know im only diamond but whenever i play a zerg its pretty much an auto loss. i dont get what to do
carriers. I am not kidding. Carriers are very strong now and void rays actually got a speed buff which makes them 100% more annoying.
If you don't believe in the multitasking to set Z behind before hydras are out, just play skytoss.
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EPT
