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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On August 03 2018 06:43 Socke wrote: anyone got vod of highlvl pvp cannonrush defense? have you tried printf's stream? he is a GM player who cannon rushes every game, every matchup. detailed analysis of both wins and losses... the variables of every game are meticulously preserved on his excel spread-sheets. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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Russano
United States434 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On August 23 2018 13:07 Russano wrote: I've been hitting this a ton lately too. With the style I've been facing, they use all the extra resources they have on mass turrets and planetary fortresses. I haven't found any ground-based compositions that can kill it (tanks and hellbats kill everything on the ground. If they have any ghosts at all, you will never win a ground fight if they get even one EMP on your immortals) but I've been having a lot more success responding to their turtling by taking a quick third and then turtling even harder behind cannons and shield batteries while going for mass carriers with like 6-8 void rays to tank/kill thors and storm for vikings. If they don't respond to the carriers, you just win by default. Carriers don't care about turrets, tanks, and planetary fortresses. If they do respond, then it comes down to micro.So I've been having trouble with my PvT when the Terran just kinda expands and turtles. Whats the unit that breaks mass tanks, hellions and thor? It sounds like a really scummy way to play Protoss but if they're gonna play that way then you have to too. Since they seem to be going mass planetary fortress/turret everywhere, doing the standard strategy of pulling the mech army apart by attacking in multiple places doesn't really work unless you can manage to sneak a warp prism into their main. I don't like playing against this style at all. It just isn't fun. So many ladder Terrans lately are doing it, and it is incredibly dull to play against. It reminds me a lot of the old mass static defence Zerg styles. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
while i'm doing all that i go for fast gases at my third base + a second warp prism + stargate and try to harass as much as i can while teching like crazy and getting up to carriers. if they are still making a lot of hellbats i add storm and templar because in my opinion storm is actually very very good against hellbat mech, especially if they're hitting a timing attack. i find when i get over the mental wall of "he's playing defensive mech, i can't do damage" i often can get a lot done with archon/immortal/stalker. you should at least be able to deny a 4th base and maybe pick off a couple of units, supply depots, turrets, sensor towers, etc. | ||
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samchan1331
17 Posts
What you should do when you see those play, 1. Out expand the Terran with cannons to prevent runby kill many probes 2. have many high templars for storming 3. Get tempest to force them reposition Tempest out range everything, try to siege the terran with tempest, they will eventually need to do something, either it’s using thor or Vikings. If it’s Viking, storm them. If it’s thors, kite them. You can also get a forward position, building cannons and battery to reinforce. Now that raven don’t kill ur army in one second, a late game tvp (especially against mech) should be favored in p. If they don’t want to be sieged like that, they will have to push out of their defensive position. That point, you can use your ground army, keep in mind, don’t lose any tempest, because they need quite a long time to build. Also, you most of the time don’t want archons. They are bad unless they have a lot of hellbats. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 26 2018 20:06 samchan1331 wrote: Against turtle Terran, if they are not out of position, sieging up beside a plantery and tons of turret, you can’t attack into them. What you should do when you see those play, 1. Out expand the Terran with cannons to prevent runby kill many probes 2. have many high templars for storming 3. Get tempest to force them reposition Tempest out range everything, try to siege the terran with tempest, they will eventually need to do something, either it’s using thor or Vikings. If it’s Viking, storm them. If it’s thors, kite them. You can also get a forward position, building cannons and battery to reinforce. Now that raven don’t kill ur army in one second, a late game tvp (especially against mech) should be favored in p. If they don’t want to be sieged like that, they will have to push out of their defensive position. That point, you can use your ground army, keep in mind, don’t lose any tempest, because they need quite a long time to build. Also, you most of the time don’t want archons. They are bad unless they have a lot of hellbats. maybe you didn't read the posts. the previous posters were asking specifically about a style of mech that uses hellbats, they both talked about hellions/hellbats in their posts.  | ||
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Zyos1
9 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
It's builds like this that make me wish the nexus cannon was still a thing. | ||
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FrashQ
53 Posts
On August 31 2018 23:56 Ben... wrote: I've been hitting a ton of people doing proxy cyclone where they hit with two cyclones and 6-8 SCVs on autorepair at around 3:30, before warpgate is done and before you can get an immortal out. What can you do to stop it? It seems like if you don't know it's coming far enough ahead of time to chrono out a bunch of stalkers and build a bunch of batteries, it comes down to a build order loss, but if they fake it and don't attack, you end up way behind. I had a person do this after doing a fast second depot to prevent me from scouting their main at all and a marine to prevent me from scouting their main or natural. I scouted for proxies but missed it and then promptly just died despite having two shield batteries and a couple stalkers. Two cyclones out-DPS the shield recharge from the batteries and the stalkers can't beat the SCV repair. It's builds like this that make me wish the nexus cannon was still a thing. It's the same problem for me. This season my pvt is at 33% and mostly because of all those different cyclone/scv openings. Even the 'safe' openings seem to be destroyed often by 4 reactored cyclones with scv repair. I even played one game where the guy seemeed to play standard, i scouted a fac after CC and a reaper, but he just built one extra fac on the map making cyclones, and hit me with 2 more cyclones than i expected and just killed me. I have no idea how many batteries I am supposed to make blind to win vs this.. | ||
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Mordanis
United States893 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
In PvP you just have to adapt according to your opponent and vice versa. I guess phoenix or oracle openings most often get you into macro with harassment scenarios. | ||
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NExt
Australia1651 Posts
I'm from WoL, so I'm not use to fighting hydras. Storm is good but its not enough? Unless I'm terrible. Whats the army comp? Mass immortals getting rekt with a muta switch. Iunno, I just can't read zerg too well  EdIt: barely master league and I like to be aggressive / harrass style. | ||
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Tempest
United States147 Posts
On September 01 2018 18:36 NExt wrote: I can't seem to touch Zerg. Can anyone run me down their general moves and start vs zerg? I'm from WoL, so I'm not use to fighting hydras. Storm is good but its not enough? Unless I'm terrible. Whats the army comp? Mass immortals getting rekt with a muta switch. Iunno, I just can't read zerg too well EdIt: barely master league and I like to be aggressive / harrass style. Most players better than ourselves open stargate with 1 phoenix into 1 oracle or vice versa (doesn't really matter the order). Phoenix to kill scouting overlord, oracle for drone harass. A nifty trick is to fly in with phoenix and oracle at the same time, phoenix lift queen while oracle kills drones. if the enemy isn't fast enough to target your oracle with spore, you can get a decent amount of damage done. Keep oracle alive, as the info you gain from revelations and random scouts is pretty vital, if oracle dies, remake. Even if the only 2 units you make out of the stargate the whole game are those first two units, its considered worth it due to scouting, scout denial, oracles being able to help secure 3rd against Ling pressure and defend early all-ins. After the stargate opener, theres too many possible routes for both players to go to define here. Very popular protoss follow up is archon drop due to being able to get free damage if you micro well and continue pressure, or an 8 gate chargelot all-in, but again, lots of different ways to go. Storm should be good enough to deal with hydras imo. youll want a few immortals, a few archons, storm, and chargelots. Spend a lot of time trying to clear creep, be very careful of taking engagements on creep against ling hydra bane. Most of the recent (past few months worth) of Korean PvZ will provide excellent study material on the dynamics of this matchup. The great thing about the stargate opener, is it often acts as a great deterrent to the muta style you said was giving you a bit of a hard time with immo play. I think this build and playstyle will fit you, as it is considered to be aggressive with harass and allows plenty of strong timings and/or all-ins. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
if zerg morphs a lot of speed banelings with his hydras before he maxes out then start warping in more archons and make simcity with gates/batteries/cannons, because zerg is aggressively at his strongest during that part of the game. any zealots you warp in should be either harassing offensively or after the engagement to clean up retreating zerg don't be fooled by your bad experience with immortals. they're good. they're always good until zerg has brood lords. even if he goes muta your immortals are still good, especially since a common zerg strat is to do two ridiculous tech switches one after the other, so 15 mutas might mean a roach max two minutes later. the key is to not go double robo with no other tech. as long as you open stargate you'll have access to phoenix, and 1-2 cannons and batteries in vulnerable mineral lines will slow down mutas a lot. scouting it is key, so just pay attention to if all you see is mass ling roach | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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OdyseeSc2
3 Posts
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Socke
Germany451 Posts
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Russano
United States434 Posts
You don't get the adept scout which means you can't see later all in's coming unless you get lucky with the probe. It also delays tech so any build except for maybe the charge all in would hit later. (And I mean entire minutes later, not slightly later. Your stargate is guaranteed to be delayed as you are already getting it as fast as possible so even further delayed scouting and defensive resources for early aggression. And what do you get out of it? A faster nexus and maybe some extra long term minerals? Meh. If it IS viable in some form it would be as a mindgame in a series where you know they don't drone scout, will open hatch first, and likely won't see it in time to punish it. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I can hold the various builds, but I always end up far enough behind that I can't recover enough and die to something else. All three rushed hydras with baneling nests afterward, making them somewhat all-in proof. One adjustment I've made is going oracle first instead of phoenix before oracle but other than that I'm not sure. I usually send out an adept for scouting but they use the first zerglings to deny it from scouting and it doesn't scout baneling busts in time anyway. | ||
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