EPTI've also been facing a variant where they hide two barracks, not necessarily in the same location, and crank out reapers. This variant feels pretty strong because it looks like single proxy barracks reaper and all of a sudden 5-6 reapers are in your base and you have at most a couple stalkers. Is shield batteries the way to go?
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 63
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
I've also been facing a variant where they hide two barracks, not necessarily in the same location, and crank out reapers. This variant feels pretty strong because it looks like single proxy barracks reaper and all of a sudden 5-6 reapers are in your base and you have at most a couple stalkers. Is shield batteries the way to go? | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On June 07 2018 03:50 Ben... wrote: What is the best way to deal with proxy barracks without getting behind? Think Byun vs. Stats. I've been facing it a ton on Lost and Found and finding that because the map is so big, it's not possible to scout it in time usually. I've also been facing a variant where they hide two barracks, not necessarily in the same location, and crank out reapers. This variant feels pretty strong because it looks like single proxy barracks reaper and all of a sudden 5-6 reapers are in your base and you have at most a couple stalkers. Is shield batteries the way to go? Well, the hardest part (from my experience) is a proper interpretation of your intel data. Usually 1 gas + nothing on main = some kind of proxy barracks play (either marauders or reapers). But the game you mentioned Byun went for 2 gas (no buildings in the main). That is an indication of proxy factory pushes (at least is supposed to be). That was the tricky part. But anyways. My response to any kind of proxy is: core before nexi, insta 2nd gas, into multiple stalker chrono into SG. Nexi could be delayed (don't stop probe production then). And defend at nat with SB. If this turnes out to be proxy mass reapers all u need is stalkers. 1 SB in the mineral line (main) could be a good idea as well. Never really got any problems with these styles so... nothing to add really. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
On June 07 2018 21:08 insitelol wrote: Well, the hardest part (from my experience) is a proper interpretation of your intel data. Usually 1 gas + nothing on main = some kind of proxy barracks play (either marauders or reapers). But the game you mentioned Byun went for 2 gas (no buildings in the main). That is an indication of proxy factory pushes (at least is supposed to be). That was the tricky part. But anyways. My response to any kind of proxy is: core before nexi, insta 2nd gas, into multiple stalker chrono into SG. Nexi could be delayed (don't stop probe production then). And defend at nat with SB. If this turnes out to be proxy mass reapers all u need is stalkers. 1 SB in the mineral line (main) could be a good idea as well. Never really got any problems with these styles so... nothing to add really. Not necessarily. 2 gas proxy can still just be a single reaper then lift barracks back home and make a factory at home. You need to keep the probe patrolling around his base to make sure. If the factory is proxied then you need to make a zealot as a meatshield against cyclones for your stalkers. Otherwise vs proxy reaper, you just micro your probes (core before nexus) until you have stalkers and just play a normal game from there. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
On June 13 2018 07:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: recently in PvT, I'm falling way behind when they ebay my natural. Any tips? You'll be surprised but the difference between nexus timings is not that big as long as you chrono probes on main like crazy. Ebay blocks may look OP at first glance, but in reality Pros don't practice it. And the reason is it doesnt put terran ahead. When you see an ebay block insta build a second pylon+gaz and chrono zealot and don't stop probe production. 1-2 probes should kill scv as fast as possible. If you do everything right ebay won't go above ~20-30%. As i mentioned nexus timings are not THAT impactful on your eco (within a moderate timing window ofc). You could check that yourself in a custom game. The difference between a 20 nexus and a 27-29 nexus won't exceed 100-150 minerals -> The exact value of ebay, that also delays his tech. | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
I always do double stalker instead and I've noticed that double stalker wins vs double adept almost always in the opening, yet almost all other protosses except me seems to be going double adept. What's the point? | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On June 26 2018 22:01 Jan1997 wrote: Can someone explain to me why double adept opening is a thing in pvp? I always do double stalker instead and I've noticed that double stalker wins vs double adept almost always in the opening, yet almost all other protosses except me seems to be going double adept. What's the point? It only costs 50 gas, is useful for scouting, and if your opponent doesn't pay attention or try and counter it you can get a pretty big advantage from it since you're usually at least guaranteed enough worker kills to give you an advantage if the adepts get in and there's no non-probe units defending. That extra 50 gas from going adepts instead of stalkers first lets you tech faster at the expense of being slightly less safe. It's a trade off of sorts. | ||
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On July 05 2018 15:15 phantomfive wrote: In PvP (I'm gold on K server) I see a lot of protosses building a wall, then going up to void rays and carriers. Is there a typical way to counter this? A good timing? How do you attack through cannons and shield batteries? I am able to contain them on two bases, but two bases have enough resources to build a large army. If they turtle like this you can easily get a third and 66 probes, then translate the economic advantange into an upgrade lead with mass archons (get shield upgrades, not armor). Just expand faster than them and tech to archons while keeping them at home with blink stalkers (which you should eventually kill off to free supply, ideally with a suicide mission to destroy important tech or probes). 200/200 archons don't beat 200/200 carriers, but you can max out (and remax) on archons way faster than them. So once your 3-4 base economy starts paying off, you should be able to start denying their expands and starve them out by killing interceptors over and over and recharging shields Because you'll be floating a ton of minerals fro making only high templars, you can make chargelot runbys while their army is busy with the archons, but you don't want to waste too much supply on that. A fun strat if they turtle like crazy is to put a pylon in the middle of the map with a million shield batteries, force fights to kill interceptors then run back to the batteries and put pressure on again even faster. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On July 05 2018 20:48 ArtyK wrote: If they turtle like this you can easily get a third and 66 probes, then translate the economic advantange into an upgrade lead with mass archons (get shield upgrades, not armor). Just expand faster than them and tech to archons while keeping them at home with blink stalkers (which you should eventually kill off to free supply, ideally with a suicide mission to destroy important tech or probes). 200/200 archons don't beat 200/200 carriers, but you can max out (and remax) on archons way faster than them. So once your 3-4 base economy starts paying off, you should be able to start denying their expands and starve them out by killing interceptors over and over and recharging shields Because you'll be floating a ton of minerals fro making only high templars, you can make chargelot runbys while their army is busy with the archons, but you don't want to waste too much supply on that. A fun strat if they turtle like crazy is to put a pylon in the middle of the map with a million shield batteries, force fights to kill interceptors then run back to the batteries and put pressure on again even faster. 4.3k diamond here - i ran into this yesterday and lost to it. i responded the way you said - greedy third (and fourth) with mass archons. i camped outside his third base, which he never took - instead he sent about 6 carriers around the edge of the map to go for a base snipe. i defended with archons and didn't lose a base, but because of recall he lost nothing and forced my units to run around the map. he did this over and over until he had so many carriers that my archons couldn't win a straight fight anymore. there was nowhere to do a "runby" because he built literally at least 20-30 cannons at the front of his base, so my zealots were wasted supply. maybe i could have waited for him to move out and then dropped a speed prism into his main to kill his stargates or something, i don't know i know theoretically how to play against a turtling player, but i don't understand what to do when the skytoss player dictates the engagements. i don't understand how i'm supposed to "force a fight in the middle of the map" when he's sitting in his base or on the edge of the map with air units. the shield battery idea is pretty interesting but how in the world am i supposed to get him to fly into my shield batteries? i just don't think carriers are a fun unit in any matchup :/ i know people like them because they're an "iconic" capital ship from brood war, but i can't think of the last time they made a game more fun to play or watch. i do use them frequently in PVZ but only because there's not another real option for super lategame against zerg | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On July 06 2018 20:26 brickrd wrote: 4.3k diamond here - i ran into this yesterday and lost to it. i responded the way you said - greedy third (and fourth) with mass archons. i camped outside his third base, which he never took - instead he sent about 6 carriers around the edge of the map to go for a base snipe. i defended with archons and didn't lose a base, but because of recall he lost nothing and forced my units to run around the map. he did this over and over until he had so many carriers that my archons couldn't win a straight fight anymore. there was nowhere to do a "runby" because he built literally at least 20-30 cannons at the front of his base, so my zealots were wasted supply. maybe i could have waited for him to move out and then dropped a speed prism into his main to kill his stargates or something, i don't know i know theoretically how to play against a turtling player, but i don't understand what to do when the skytoss player dictates the engagements. i don't understand how i'm supposed to "force a fight in the middle of the map" when he's sitting in his base or on the edge of the map with air units. the shield battery idea is pretty interesting but how in the world am i supposed to get him to fly into my shield batteries? i just don't think carriers are a fun unit in any matchup :/ i know people like them because they're an "iconic" capital ship from brood war, but i can't think of the last time they made a game more fun to play or watch. i do use them frequently in PVZ but only because there's not another real option for super lategame against zerg Well if you attack his base surely he can't be running around the map all the time right? I can't imagine someone having enough money on 2 bases to build carriers AND have enough cannons without support to defend archons. Why is the turtle player the one pinning you at home? He's forcing a fight because he attacks your infrastructures and economy, you should be the one doing that. Doesn't mean you have to commit as long as it keeps him occupied. If you're on their side of the map they will think twice before moving out, and if they do you can initiate basetrades faster, which you should win with more bases, probes and faster prodution. With recall cooldown it's not like he can repeat the process every minute anyway. The shield battery thing is fun but I can't confirm how viable it is :p though you don't have to wait for them to fight. If you attack them you'll take damage from whatever defense they have and then run back to the batteries. Send the replay if you're still not sure ^^ | ||
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phantomfive
Korea (South)404 Posts
On July 06 2018 20:26 brickrd wrote: 4.3k diamond here - i ran into this yesterday and lost to it. i responded the way you said - greedy third (and fourth) with mass archons. haha I'm glad I'm not the only one this happens to.  | ||
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PolloAndres99
1 Post
On July 06 2018 22:34 phantomfive wrote: haha I'm glad I'm not the only one this happens to. man just go fast third and i will recommend do phoenix (with upgrades they just rekt carriers, u have to micro well vs voidrays), but voidrays are sick vs carriers ( same rule of thumb, if they go phoenix with good micro its gg for u), remember that airtoss only can be beaten with airtoss ( early game you can win with blink stalkers but if they turtle dumb like this blink into photon cannons are a suicide) | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
I just want to know what composition that is viable nowadays? I've tried so much stuff different stuff , archons/phoenix/chargelot/sentry immortal allin/voidray/oracle/colossus but the bio ball keeps getting me. I can't figure out a good setup. What do you guys roll with? | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
On July 13 2018 20:55 Jan1997 wrote: My PvT is 41% after almost 300 games laddered, I need help cause it's annoying to have such a onesided matchup. I just want to know what composition that is viable nowadays? I've tried so much stuff different stuff , archons/phoenix/chargelot/sentry immortal allin/voidray/oracle/colossus but the bio ball keeps getting me. I can't figure out a good setup. What do you guys roll with? You need splash vs bio, or a lot of chargelots with immortals and a few stalkers. I personally open blink into charge + storm, so my composition end up with around 12 stalkers, a few high templars, mass chargelots, and immortals whenever I can afford them. Blink into 3 colossi then disruptors is also viable, or colossi into storm. Even if you open stargate you usually make 2-3 oracles while transitioning to something else, void rays are expensive and bad vs bio. | ||
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Jan1997
Norway671 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
ideally what you want is to finish blink and charge before terran realizes what you're doing, and then the first engagement should favor you a lot because blink and charge make it so easy to chase an army down when it's retreating. if your zealots are alive you should be targeting medivacs with stalkers. if the zealots die just blink away and warp in more. don't forget about your blink after charge comes into play - you still want to use it a lot for sniping liberators, defending drops, and chasing armies after a good engage. it's really "blink+charge" more so than it's "blink into charge" it's an aggressive low tech comp that gets harder to use when you go up against better terrans. you'll play games where it seems so good it should be standard, then you'll play against a terran who scouts what you're doing, adds mass widow mine and kites very well, then suddenly you have no army and no tech  one really important thing to be aware of is that if you're going to go heavy stalker/zealot and try to win the game off of that you will NOT need more than three gases. seriously. take your third base off of 3 gas and don't add any more gas until you're adding splash damage. or if you're in master+ and you think your build will be scouted maybe build the fourth assimilator but don't mine from it. i think i've seen RotterdaM on stream even intentionally mine his third gas with only 2 probes instead of 3. that might be a little silly, but he's higher MMR than me and he seems to think there's something to it if you're in an advantage you can even go double forge and fourth base off 3 gas with this style because it's insanely zealot heavy. sometimes terrans will send out one lazy drop to try harassment and if it fails they'll fly home and macro. what i like to do is deflect that drop and then take a super fast fourth base - most terrans aren't even really expecting a fourth base at that timing, so you can snowball it pretty quickly. you want a lot of gates as well, like 10-12 on 3 base and on 4+ bases just keep adding them until you transition | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1074 Posts
5500 mmr, getting destroyed by this composition. I don't wanna doom drop, cuz blink, cuz recall, so I stop producing medivacs pretty early. liberators seem like the only way to beat this comp on the ground, head-on, so I don't wanna make more than 4 medivacs. if you manage to snipe all the obs and find an opening... yeah, you can R + left click while you boost in, then hold position all your bio as it unloads. this gives you a sweet pre-spread and takes longer for toss to clean up... more time to get your other army into position to snipe a nexus. this tactic works vs phoenix / colossus, but not quite as good vs stalker / disruptor. I've tried making my third cc a planetary, continuing tank production after the usual 2-3. I'm considered making a 2nd factory for marine / tank. saw maru try the 2nd factory vs robo play on stream. didn't work out so well... I can survive and get maxed on 3 bases. then, when it comes to pushing out, I don't make it very far. so what's the verdict? is mass liberator the answer? | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
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Socke
Germany451 Posts
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