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The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 61

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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XupinatoR
Profile Joined July 2011
Spain125 Posts
January 26 2018 15:23 GMT
#1201
How do you guys play against randoms that get zerg?
You can't put the first pylon on your nat cause if your rival is P or T ur fucked, but u cant also play with a late natural or a non walled one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D41Re9_AqL0
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-01-26 18:02:34
January 26 2018 18:01 GMT
#1202
On January 27 2018 00:23 XupinatoR wrote:
How do you guys play against randoms that get zerg?
You can't put the first pylon on your nat cause if your rival is P or T ur fucked, but u cant also play with a late natural or a non walled one.


Against T a wall isn't that bad, pro players even do it for hellion runbys. But yeah in general if they don't tell their race you want to start a wall at your main ramp and pylon scout, if you see it's not Z (check for the overlord to know faster) just put the cyber core behind without finishing the wall.

If it is Z you can wall the natural later and are still safe from agressive openings, though it's obviously not ideal
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
SorrowShine
Profile Joined October 2011
698 Posts
February 05 2018 13:17 GMT
#1203
Do Psionic Storms stack?
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
February 05 2018 13:39 GMT
#1204
Unfortunately they don't
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
February 09 2018 04:00 GMT
#1205
I'm having a hell of a time against Zerg right now. It feels like every game is devolving into mass hydra/lurker/sometimes bane timings that are very tough to stop. This combo eats charge zealot/immortal/archon but lurkers also can hit colossus-based compositions so you can't even use range to kill them (plus to do so required you to move your observer in range of hydras). They bring along multiple overseers and snipe observers, and you're basically a sitting duck at that point.

Do you have to use oracles in this case? I have been trying to avoid opening oracle because literally every zerg is ready for it now and it feels like I'm basically throwing away gas. Likewise, adept openings are not the best unless it's a worse opponent (which is not a thing you want to count on) and even so, they just use the zerglings they make to defend into banelings and add them to the hydra/lurker. It feels as if I don't at least slow zerg down a bit, this hydra/lurker timing will hit before I can be ready at my 3rd.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15955 Posts
February 09 2018 10:14 GMT
#1206
Yes, you need Oracles vs Lurkers.
You don't necessarily need to open Stargate and can add your Stargate later... but Stargate opening is so good anyway that there's not really a reason not to do it, having easy access to Oracles vs Lurker play is another big plus of a Stargate opening.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-09 10:41:39
February 09 2018 10:39 GMT
#1207
You can make a few observers but that's only while the stargate is building, you do need revelation for lurkers.
Stargate is literally the only available opening for pvz at the pro level right now, and not because the oracle deals damage. In fact most pros are happy getting 2 drones with the first oracle now.

The strength here lies in the fact that this is the safest vs allins, it gives you map control and complete knowledge of your opponent tech path, detection, stasis for defense or harass, as well as forcing spores. And in the rare case where zerg isn't ready, you get 5 drone kills on top of that.

Now is it necessary unless you're a top pro, probably not, i do fine with twilight openings, but it makes me vulnerable to allins so you have to keep that in mind.

As for dealing with lurkers in general you will need storms to deflect the banelings, and a good concave before engaging.
If you go colossi you need force fields to deal with as much ling bane as possible before fighting the lurkers
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
SartPls
Profile Joined August 2017
Germany76 Posts
February 09 2018 17:34 GMT
#1208
Something to add here, while I'm not a top player myself, from what I've seen, and heard from casters, it's fine not to actually OPEN with an oracle, since as you mentioned, most Zergs have their Spore timings down so you won't get any instant value unless they try to ling bust you... but you should never completely skip it. As the others mentioned, Revelation is way too good vs the almost guaranteed Lurker play Zergs do nowadays, so you definitely want the Oracle as your 2nd or 3rd unit from Stargate. Apart from that, opening with Phoenixes or a Void Ray though is perfectly fine
Current SC2 progress: 2017 S4: Bronze -> Gold. 2018 S1: Gold -> Dia. 2018 S3: Dia -> Master
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
February 09 2018 22:25 GMT
#1209
Yeah, phoenix first is quite common nowadays. Up to you really, I can see benefits to both phoenix and oracle first. Little to a void ray, though, unless you're being all-inned or something.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
SartPls
Profile Joined August 2017
Germany76 Posts
February 09 2018 23:36 GMT
#1210
On February 10 2018 07:25 Olli wrote:
Yeah, phoenix first is quite common nowadays. Up to you really, I can see benefits to both phoenix and oracle first. Little to a void ray, though, unless you're being all-inned or something.


I think opening with a Void Ray is more of a blindcounter to the early Roaches that many Zergs use to counter the "standard" 2 Archon drop that you see so often in PvZ right now. But yeah, it's definitely the least common of the 3 unit options
Current SC2 progress: 2017 S4: Bronze -> Gold. 2018 S1: Gold -> Dia. 2018 S3: Dia -> Master
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
February 10 2018 00:18 GMT
#1211
Ok, thanks everyone! I figured oracles were probably the key to this. I just started playing again a month or so back after not playing basically since 2013 and have slowly been getting back up to speed. I've figured almost everything else from experimenting and watching streams, but certain aspects of PvZ I just haven't figured out yet, mostly stuff relating to the newer Zerg units.

And yeah, I'm not sure why I was starting to try games without Stargate since I was using it a lot to hold roach/ravager all-ins before. One day I decided to try not opening Stargate, and have been struggling ever since.
"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
Obamarauder
Profile Joined June 2015
697 Posts
February 10 2018 07:59 GMT
#1212
anyone got a replay of a pro player holding ling drop with ling flood at natural? I'm not really sure of the response, a lot of people say go oracle then phoenix to kill overlord, but phoenix kills overlords too slow, lings have already dropped in. Oracle is super unreliable due its energy requirement.
ArtyK
Profile Joined June 2011
France3143 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-10 11:14:41
February 10 2018 11:13 GMT
#1213
On February 10 2018 16:59 Obamarauder wrote:
anyone got a replay of a pro player holding ling drop with ling flood at natural? I'm not really sure of the response, a lot of people say go oracle then phoenix to kill overlord, but phoenix kills overlords too slow, lings have already dropped in. Oracle is super unreliable due its energy requirement.


As long as you keep walling your natural you only need to worry about the drops

At 1h36 :
Sup dood ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ KiWiKaKi | SLush | uThermal | PtitDrogo | SortOf | Clem ~ "I told my mom she should vote for me in Nation Wars, she said 'I dunno, I kinda want Finland to win'" – Luolis ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_NScWV9h8k#t=1h01m
TL+ Member
Romnel
Profile Joined January 2018
11 Posts
February 13 2018 10:09 GMT
#1214
What I am finding useful recently is to build more than 1/2 oracles or phenixes. While the zergs are prepared vs. the single oracle timing if you send more of them or you send the phoenixes you can easily snipe the queens, kill some drones and keep the hydras in base to defend. I find that usually the zerg overracts to it and delays a lot the lurker army. While keeping this pressure you can have a smoother transition to the ICA /storms and you can skip that Archon drop.
Obamarauder
Profile Joined June 2015
697 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-18 03:25:39
February 18 2018 03:19 GMT
#1215
I'm having trouble against zergs that use ravager centered unit comps. They don't really directly engage but just keep poking with bile against my buildings/army and eventually outruns me if zerg gets the opportunity. What should my response be assuming i opened the usual stargate into archon drop + 3rd base. I'm thinking about holding with blink stalkers while teching to double robo colossus.
Daimai
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden762 Posts
February 18 2018 22:39 GMT
#1216
What is the general unit comp and tech timings that we are trying to get against hydra plays? I don't see any clear general "goal composition" I should strive against and how I should get there. Any good build guides/replays perhaps?
To pray is to accept defeat.
SartPls
Profile Joined August 2017
Germany76 Posts
February 20 2018 11:43 GMT
#1217
On February 19 2018 07:39 Daimai wrote:
What is the general unit comp and tech timings that we are trying to get against hydra plays? I don't see any clear general "goal composition" I should strive against and how I should get there. Any good build guides/replays perhaps?


Just about every Protoss comp in any matchup basically aims at Chargelot/Immortal/Archon backed up by Storm as their "ultimate goal" (not counting mass carriers). Vs Hydras, depending on your playstyle and the units they use together with Hydras, you have a few options before getting to IAC though:

- An All-In push with ~12 Gladepts, 2 Immos and 6 Sentries as described HERE messes greatly with the usual Hydra timings, so if you don't mind playing All-Ins, that's a good option for some quick wins

- If they go for Ling/Bane/Hydra, Blink Stalker into Colossi is great, while transitioning into IAC afterwards (around the time they opt for Broodlords)

- If they go for Lurkers on top of their Hydras, just going straight into IAC is your best bet tbh. Make sure you have 2+ Oracles for constant Revelations, since Observers are not reliable means of detection rn
Current SC2 progress: 2017 S4: Bronze -> Gold. 2018 S1: Gold -> Dia. 2018 S3: Dia -> Master
brickrd
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
United States4894 Posts
March 04 2018 19:18 GMT
#1218
anyone ever use stalker/adept against terran? i use a lot of stalker/zealot midgame comps, and they work quite well, but i feel like in some cases adepts can be good as well. i just played against a terran who opened up with big 2 base push before 3rd, so i decided to go glaive adepts after blink and warped in about 50/50 stalkers to adepts. he killed my 3rd because i reacted slowly, but i chronoed out a prism, counterattacked and won while he was trying to land his 3rd

i don't watch a lot of pro games - do pros ever use stalker/adept? is it worse for any major reason other than costing more gas?
TL+ Member
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-03-06 12:38:06
March 06 2018 12:35 GMT
#1219
On March 05 2018 04:18 brickrd wrote:
anyone ever use stalker/adept against terran? i use a lot of stalker/zealot midgame comps, and they work quite well, but i feel like in some cases adepts can be good as well. i just played against a terran who opened up with big 2 base push before 3rd, so i decided to go glaive adepts after blink and warped in about 50/50 stalkers to adepts. he killed my 3rd because i reacted slowly, but i chronoed out a prism, counterattacked and won while he was trying to land his 3rd

i don't watch a lot of pro games - do pros ever use stalker/adept? is it worse for any major reason other than costing more gas?

I saw Naniwa using that exact comp yesterday, he lost horribly though. From my personal experience, i can tell adepts work only in overwhelming numbers and only in early and mid game. When terran gathers his 200|200 bio ball adepts just melt instantaneously w/o dealing any damage. Their another significant drawback is that they need to shade ontop of bio to be efficient thus resuliting in no way for them to retreat. This is a very predictable move and terran is always ready for that. They know exactly when and where to land emps (but thats an overkill really). While zealots can at least try to escape after being EMPd, adepts just die. So overall, adepts are pretty terrible. I don't even know why do you want to use them. Zealots are much more solid choice in practically every situation. But colosi are even better = )
Less is more.
Obamarauder
Profile Joined June 2015
697 Posts
March 06 2018 16:49 GMT
#1220
I saw Classic go resonating glaives instead of charge after opening oracle in his series vs heromarine. Game 1 where heromarine takes a third, he breaks him with adept stalker sentry. Game 2, he did defended since heromarine didnt take a third. In both games he went adepts as a response to heromarines build, 3 rax 2 reactor 1 tech lab.
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