|
What are the ideal zerg unit compositions against Z/T/P in all stages of the game, early, mid, late?
to get a bit more specific, I'm really kind of lost against T and very specific units within P as it doesn't seem like too much has changed in how you approach P as Z.
vs. Terran: Bio; Bio+Mech; Mech with late game air transition
vs. Protoss: early adepts; mid-game mass gateway + disruptor; gateway + carrier
vs. Zerg: best opener? how to transition into lurkers? best way to deal with mutas (are infestors still worth it? best to go muta yourself or play hydra + nydus?).
I know this is a broad topic but I'm also interested in how you guys utilize drops, nydus, lurkers, vipers, ultras and are swarm hosts useless or do they have a place somewhere?
|
vs T: Roach ravager seems to be pretty good, though if you have bad drop defense then ling bane corruptor might be ok, still haven't decided whether the corruptors are ok or if they cost too much to be worth it.
vs P: Ravager ling is really really good. Just open with speed to kill adept harass then go into double upgraded lings with a third and start getting ravagers.
vs Z: Get really good at ling bane micro, you'll need it. Lurkers aren't that good in zvz imo. They are countered by every hive tech unit and the lurker den takes forever to morph now. Also if you turtle with them you'll just get destroyed in the economy game and get run over. If they go muta you could go muta yourself and fast tech to viper, or try a roach hydra push before they get many lings and banes. Roach hydra nydus maybe as well.
Haven't really tried swarm hosts but they seem pretty bad. Drops are really good now, especially with the ravager ling style in zvp, or any lurker composition. In particular, on some maps you can drop both the natural and main of protoss with slow overlords and speedlings, i.e. hatch tech.
To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings.
|
same as in hots i don't agree with hydra before infestor against muta, unless you know you're significantly ahead, have denied gases, etc. as a muta player myself i literally cannot remember the last time i scouted hydra before infestor against my mutas in an even game and didn't win with speed banes. a good muta player will kill tons of hydras rallying from your main to your natural too which is horrible because you have to keep building more while he's making banelings to counter them.
even against players who split hydras really really well (which is incredibly hard to do) they're just too cost effective, and once you crush a hydra push with banelings you don't even have to make any more mutas, you can just overrun with ling/bane and your original 10-15 mutas camping production lines away from spores. i believe the proper ground reaction to muta is ALWAYS queen infestor into 2/2 roach/hydra/infestor, as infestors counter both mutas and speed banes.
nydus can absolutely work although i think queen/roach with drones through the nydus for a couple of spores is a better timing
|
On November 22 2015 06:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings.
definitely just looking for ideas, so I appreciate the feedback, I'll try speedling/ravager against toss that seems pretty good
|
Are mutas still possible vs Terran or do the Liberators counter them too hard?
|
On November 22 2015 06:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
vs T: Roach ravager seems to be pretty good, though if you have bad drop defense then ling bane corruptor might be ok, still haven't decided whether the corruptors are ok or if they cost too much to be worth it.
vs P: Ravager ling is really really good. Just open with speed to kill adept harass then go into double upgraded lings with a third and start getting ravagers.
vs Z: Get really good at ling bane micro, you'll need it. Lurkers aren't that good in zvz imo. They are countered by every hive tech unit and the lurker den takes forever to morph now. Also if you turtle with them you'll just get destroyed in the economy game and get run over. If they go muta you could go muta yourself and fast tech to viper, or try a roach hydra push before they get many lings and banes. Roach hydra nydus maybe as well.
Haven't really tried swarm hosts but they seem pretty bad. Drops are really good now, especially with the ravager ling style in zvp, or any lurker composition. In particular, on some maps you can drop both the natural and main of protoss with slow overlords and speedlings, i.e. hatch tech.
To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings.
you can make some silly comebacks with lurkers in zvz
its pretty dumb
they shred like.. everything
|
On November 22 2015 09:23 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 06:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
vs T: Roach ravager seems to be pretty good, though if you have bad drop defense then ling bane corruptor might be ok, still haven't decided whether the corruptors are ok or if they cost too much to be worth it.
vs P: Ravager ling is really really good. Just open with speed to kill adept harass then go into double upgraded lings with a third and start getting ravagers.
vs Z: Get really good at ling bane micro, you'll need it. Lurkers aren't that good in zvz imo. They are countered by every hive tech unit and the lurker den takes forever to morph now. Also if you turtle with them you'll just get destroyed in the economy game and get run over. If they go muta you could go muta yourself and fast tech to viper, or try a roach hydra push before they get many lings and banes. Roach hydra nydus maybe as well.
Haven't really tried swarm hosts but they seem pretty bad. Drops are really good now, especially with the ravager ling style in zvp, or any lurker composition. In particular, on some maps you can drop both the natural and main of protoss with slow overlords and speedlings, i.e. hatch tech.
To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings. you can make some silly comebacks with lurkers in zvz its pretty dumb they shred like.. everything
I think this could be true.
The problem is most people try to rush to Lurkers or think they are not viable. Rushing to Lurkers does not work too well as you are leaving yourself vulnerable for a pretty long window. But some after some T1 aggression, you can more safely tech up to Lurkers while keeping your opponent busy.
Also, even if you just throw a few lurkers in while teching to T3, it makes your unit composition much harder to engage while you are teching, which is something Zerg was lacking compared to the other races (it was usually Zerg needing to figure out how to engage them, not the other way around). Buying that little bit of time with your opponent hesitant to engage allows you time to tech.
|
On November 22 2015 12:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 09:23 arb wrote:On November 22 2015 06:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
vs T: Roach ravager seems to be pretty good, though if you have bad drop defense then ling bane corruptor might be ok, still haven't decided whether the corruptors are ok or if they cost too much to be worth it.
vs P: Ravager ling is really really good. Just open with speed to kill adept harass then go into double upgraded lings with a third and start getting ravagers.
vs Z: Get really good at ling bane micro, you'll need it. Lurkers aren't that good in zvz imo. They are countered by every hive tech unit and the lurker den takes forever to morph now. Also if you turtle with them you'll just get destroyed in the economy game and get run over. If they go muta you could go muta yourself and fast tech to viper, or try a roach hydra push before they get many lings and banes. Roach hydra nydus maybe as well.
Haven't really tried swarm hosts but they seem pretty bad. Drops are really good now, especially with the ravager ling style in zvp, or any lurker composition. In particular, on some maps you can drop both the natural and main of protoss with slow overlords and speedlings, i.e. hatch tech.
To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings. you can make some silly comebacks with lurkers in zvz its pretty dumb they shred like.. everything I think this could be true. The problem is most people try to rush to Lurkers or think they are not viable. Rushing to Lurkers does not work too well as you are leaving yourself vulnerable for a pretty long window. But some after some T1 aggression, you can more safely tech up to Lurkers while keeping your opponent busy. Also, even if you just throw a few lurkers in while teching to T3, it makes your unit composition much harder to engage while you are teching, which is something Zerg was lacking compared to the other races (it was usually Zerg needing to figure out how to engage them, not the other way around). Buying that little bit of time with your opponent hesitant to engage allows you time to tech.
tbh throwing in 5-6 in your standard comp is pretty worth it
even that few is hard to attack in to
|
To be honest, I've tried copying Roach Ravager vs T, but with the aggressive meta of EU Terrans, I just can't pull it off. If you rush to them Solar style, a single banshee can really screw you up since there's no way to reliably kill them. If you're going for a more economic style, it's hard to get a dangerous amount before they have something prepared for you. Your only hope is that they're going for standard Reaper/Hellion/Bio which really most Terrans I face don't do anymore.
In Solar's games, Terrans seem to be just passively macroing and wait until Solar knocks on their front door. Thats not at all the case for me.
It's either a super aggressive stim timing with lots of Marines and 1-2 Medivacs which kills me, or something around Banshees meaning I can't do enough damage to justify the Ravager cost (or trade, in which case I still have that banshee coming at my base that I need to care about which costs spores, so all in all I'd still be behind).
So I just started to go Ling Bling Muta with a safety Roach Warren, I mix in some roaches and morph them to Ravagers if I find suitable, but pure Roach/Ravager just doesn't cut it for me. Maybe I'm just unlucky or don't know how to use them, but my win rate with Roach/Ravager is around 30%, while with Muta Ling Bling it's ~60%.
Lategame composition is hive based with Vipers depending on how much air they get. I prefer Ultras to Broodlords, so ideally I'd have a muta flock, Ling/Bling Ultra + Viper.
I'll continue to practice Roach/Ravager, though at this point I'm just not convinced that they're the best choice vs Terran.
|
@KeksX
What has worked for me so far is a fast 2 base muta, which hard counters banshee openings, and then transition into roach/ravager after, to pressure their 3rd base. While still teching to t3 for ultras and getting melee upgrades. Should also build a bane nest while teching t2 to defend any kind of aggressive 2 base builds.
I'm on 70% win rate against high master/low gm terrans with this type of opening.
|
The game has become way more situational and you need to adapt quickly to your opponents units composition. The same goes for all races. For example, currently Toss and Terran are whining that 3/3 Ultras are OP, but they're not. For once, they just actually need to counter the unit instead of massing their favorit unit composition blindly (specifically, upgraded immortals w/ some gateway backup backup destroy them, and thor/marauder/tanks or alternatively if you can get to it, a lot of banshees destroy them. Also keep in mind that you can't expend to be -1 base vs zerg, not have as many upgrades, and then win against mass ultras. If you're not doing mass drop play in 2015 with either race, you're doing it wrong).
So there most certainly are no "ideal unit compositions" at any stage of the game. But common enemy unit compositions have good counters. Many terrans still just mass MM and tanks, and you can deal with that with mass ravager/ling and or ling/bling/mutas. Gateway deathballs w/ disruptor support and decent micro can't be countered before you have ultras, so you have to fight to keep the toss from accumulating to big an army or from expanding too much. Namely you have to get ahead in econ early and then pressure him from ever accumulating too many units, until you delay to T3 (or finish him off if he fails to hold your pushes) with decent upgrades.
But there are way more options for all races in early and midgame now, so you'll often see wildly varying setups which have different counters. For example, against early mass m&m pressure, lings and banelings are way better than ravager because their bombs are easy to dodge (similar to how they are useless in zvz because you can just dodge their bombs, roaches and hydras are too slow to do much damage to you when you retreat). Some terrans will try mass air, and delaying with static defense and infestors until you get vipers are very good against that.
|
On November 22 2015 05:05 emc wrote:
What are the ideal zerg unit compositions against Z/T/P in all stages of the game, early, mid, late?
to get a bit more specific, I'm really kind of lost against T and very specific units within P as it doesn't seem like too much has changed in how you approach P as Z.
vs. Terran: Bio; Bio+Mech; Mech with late game air transition
vs. Protoss: early adepts; mid-game mass gateway + disruptor; gateway + carrier
vs. Zerg: best opener? how to transition into lurkers? best way to deal with mutas (are infestors still worth it? best to go muta yourself or play hydra + nydus?).
I know this is a broad topic but I'm also interested in how you guys utilize drops, nydus, lurkers, vipers, ultras and are swarm hosts useless or do they have a place somewhere?
vs. Bio: roach, ravager, Hydra. More ravager against tanks and corruptor only against mass liberator.
vs Mech: same as bio but skiphydras if they don't build banshee hydras are for banshees and marauders don't build them otherwise. Against lategame air build vipers, the ultimate lategame for zerg is pretty strong compared to hots: corruptor, broodlord, viper with some support from queen/infestor if you can control it/have the creep spread.
vs Protoss: i think this matchup is pretty undiscoverd still. I think going for melee upgrades is pretty good though since lings work well with ravagers aginst midgame lowtech protoss ball and against air strategys you can stay of gas build only lings and queens they will have a tough time keeping up in income when you mine from 4-5 bases with only 2-3 gases taken. Against fast distruptor going into muta is nice. Although muta is always a bit risky some protoss allready blindly build stargates as a follow up for distruptor drops.
ZvZ: Same openers as hots athough you can go for a fast 3rd if you want to stay on ling bane for a while. Vice versa don't get tricked into taking a fast 3rd without proper scouting when you are droning+teching because they can easily flood you with a lot of ling/bane. Compared to hots i take gasses a bit earlier since you have less larvae and you can easily spend the gas on some ravagers. Usually i stay around 60 drones with 6 gases for roach ravager. I don't think there is a pressure to go lurkers. If you scout them regulary you can sometimes find a timing to kill them before they get lurkers. If you can't kill them just get your own lurkers or vipers if you like. They will have a tough time to push across the map with lurkers against roach ravager.
Mutas are pretty bad in my opinion, you need to take some big risks to be succesfull with them i.e. be as greedy as possible while getting them and then hopefully choose the right of these two options:
1. Use map control to tech into lurkers or hive (good against opponent s that play passive and tech themselfs bad against aggressive plays)
2. Cut drones pretty early to mass roaches/banes (good against allins from them or greedy players)
If you are facing mutas and you scout it early you can go roach queen nydus (your nydus goes down as their mutas pop = they are dead). If you scout it later adding hydras into the nydus is good. If you don't want to nydus you can go straight into hydras and then lurkers so they can't run you over with banes works for macro play or as a timing push. Of course you can still play defensivew with infestor although it is slighly harder since the spores are weaker.
|
my terran friend has been opening 1/1/1 but with a quick liberator. I understand I could just baneling bust him or ravager push and end the game, but this unit is terrifying and I want to know how to deal with it if I'm going for something standard. Anyone have experience vs. a liberator rush? What he's doing is camping my mineral line and finding gaps in my defense. These things are so strong they 1 shot hydras and 3 or 4 shot queens (can't remember). I guess I should be going ravager regardless and just acid bile when he transforms, but it's quite annoying build to deal with. He then transitions into 2 more factories and goes heavy mech with a 3rd base.
|
On November 22 2015 12:59 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 09:23 arb wrote:On November 22 2015 06:19 knOxStarcraft wrote:
vs T: Roach ravager seems to be pretty good, though if you have bad drop defense then ling bane corruptor might be ok, still haven't decided whether the corruptors are ok or if they cost too much to be worth it.
vs P: Ravager ling is really really good. Just open with speed to kill adept harass then go into double upgraded lings with a third and start getting ravagers.
vs Z: Get really good at ling bane micro, you'll need it. Lurkers aren't that good in zvz imo. They are countered by every hive tech unit and the lurker den takes forever to morph now. Also if you turtle with them you'll just get destroyed in the economy game and get run over. If they go muta you could go muta yourself and fast tech to viper, or try a roach hydra push before they get many lings and banes. Roach hydra nydus maybe as well.
Haven't really tried swarm hosts but they seem pretty bad. Drops are really good now, especially with the ravager ling style in zvp, or any lurker composition. In particular, on some maps you can drop both the natural and main of protoss with slow overlords and speedlings, i.e. hatch tech.
To quote your tag "take what i say with a grain of salt, make your own decisions and form your own opinions". There may not be an ideal unit composition in any match up, a lot of it comes down to how you use the units you make, like Life's godlike lings. you can make some silly comebacks with lurkers in zvz its pretty dumb they shred like.. everything I think this could be true. The problem is most people try to rush to Lurkers or think they are not viable. Rushing to Lurkers does not work too well as you are leaving yourself vulnerable for a pretty long window. But some after some T1 aggression, you can more safely tech up to Lurkers while keeping your opponent busy. Also, even if you just throw a few lurkers in while teching to T3, it makes your unit composition much harder to engage while you are teching, which is something Zerg was lacking compared to the other races (it was usually Zerg needing to figure out how to engage them, not the other way around). Buying that little bit of time with your opponent hesitant to engage allows you time to tech.
Intuitively I would think that ravagers would be a very powerful option vs lurkers since avoiding the bile shot seems hard, have you had any experience with that?
--
And generally a question, would mutalisks be noticeable easier to play with the macro being slightly easier? I would normally be incapable of macroing well with mutalisks, but perhaps it's possible for weaker players these times?
|
On November 22 2015 19:46 heishe wrote:
The game has become way more situational and you need to adapt quickly to your opponents units composition. The same goes for all races. For example, currently Toss and Terran are whining that 3/3 Ultras are OP, but they're not. For once, they just actually need to counter the unit instead of massing their favorit unit composition blindly (specifically, upgraded immortals w/ some gateway backup backup destroy them, and thor/marauder/tanks or alternatively if you can get to it, a lot of banshees destroy them. Also keep in mind that you can't expend to be -1 base vs zerg, not have as many upgrades, and then win against mass ultras. If you're not doing mass drop play in 2015 with either race, you're doing it wrong).
So there most certainly are no "ideal unit compositions" at any stage of the game. But common enemy unit compositions have good counters. Many terrans still just mass MM and tanks, and you can deal with that with mass ravager/ling and or ling/bling/mutas. Gateway deathballs w/ disruptor support and decent micro can't be countered before you have ultras, so you have to fight to keep the toss from accumulating to big an army or from expanding too much. Namely you have to get ahead in econ early and then pressure him from ever accumulating too many units, until you delay to T3 (or finish him off if he fails to hold your pushes) with decent upgrades.
But there are way more options for all races in early and midgame now, so you'll often see wildly varying setups which have different counters. For example, against early mass m&m pressure, lings and banelings are way better than ravager because their bombs are easy to dodge (similar to how they are useless in zvz because you can just dodge their bombs, roaches and hydras are too slow to do much damage to you when you retreat). Some terrans will try mass air, and delaying with static defense and infestors until you get vipers are very good against that.
Sorry but ultra vs bio isn't op? And being a base behind zerg as terran right now isn't too great since zerg now has arguably a stronger army that can't be contested purely with mineral heavy units in bio.
You seem to forget terran units come out of production facilities and to have enough units out to counter the opposing unit would need pretty hefty investment into factory/starport.
Terran midgame is definitely stronger as of now but I would say it is zerg favored right now due to new tools they have gotten-as mech player, I just try to all in pre or during hive as there is no real counter to current hive compositions
|
On November 25 2015 17:27 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2015 19:46 heishe wrote:
The game has become way more situational and you need to adapt quickly to your opponents units composition. The same goes for all races. For example, currently Toss and Terran are whining that 3/3 Ultras are OP, but they're not. For once, they just actually need to counter the unit instead of massing their favorit unit composition blindly (specifically, upgraded immortals w/ some gateway backup backup destroy them, and thor/marauder/tanks or alternatively if you can get to it, a lot of banshees destroy them. Also keep in mind that you can't expend to be -1 base vs zerg, not have as many upgrades, and then win against mass ultras. If you're not doing mass drop play in 2015 with either race, you're doing it wrong).
So there most certainly are no "ideal unit compositions" at any stage of the game. But common enemy unit compositions have good counters. Many terrans still just mass MM and tanks, and you can deal with that with mass ravager/ling and or ling/bling/mutas. Gateway deathballs w/ disruptor support and decent micro can't be countered before you have ultras, so you have to fight to keep the toss from accumulating to big an army or from expanding too much. Namely you have to get ahead in econ early and then pressure him from ever accumulating too many units, until you delay to T3 (or finish him off if he fails to hold your pushes) with decent upgrades.
But there are way more options for all races in early and midgame now, so you'll often see wildly varying setups which have different counters. For example, against early mass m&m pressure, lings and banelings are way better than ravager because their bombs are easy to dodge (similar to how they are useless in zvz because you can just dodge their bombs, roaches and hydras are too slow to do much damage to you when you retreat). Some terrans will try mass air, and delaying with static defense and infestors until you get vipers are very good against that. Sorry but ultra vs bio isn't op? And being a base behind zerg as terran right now isn't too great since zerg now has arguably a stronger army that can't be contested purely with mineral heavy units in bio. You seem to forget terran units come out of production facilities and to have enough units out to counter the opposing unit would need pretty hefty investment into factory/starport. Terran midgame is definitely stronger as of now but I would say it is zerg favored right now due to new tools they have gotten-as mech player, I just try to all in pre or during hive as there is no real counter to current hive compositions
I disagree. You have Liberators (insanely powerful versus ground based armies) and Ghosts. Try them sometime, you actually have to transition out of pure MMM to combat late game tech and have the means to do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
