EPTThe LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 3
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KirA_TheGreaT
France204 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On November 24 2015 08:02 EvilContrarian wrote: I haven't encountered a lot of High Templar on ladder and I am not sure how to deal with them late game. Are ghosts the only option or is there an alternative available to a mainly bio composition? What is the best sim city/ unit comp to use to secure your bases in a late game scenario where your expands are spread out and you are attempting to drop around the map to deny the opponent expands in tvp? Should you try to force a big engagement with a specific late game composition, or focus on starving out the protoss? In the late game, they have enough high templars to force the issue against bio comps. You need ghosts. Midgame they might not commit heavily enough to them that splits and lib backup are fine. Considering that ghosts still do terrific AoE shield damage regardless, it shouldn't be a terrible option in your mind. For your second question, beyond the standard Planetary (with building armor) and turrets, not much. Powerful mobile army ready to defend if he commits in, 1/3 of force committed to dropping to disrupt production and kill expansions. Bio lib ghost for me as a general standard. You pick the most favorable late-game engagement area you can. | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
On November 24 2015 08:53 KirA_TheGreaT wrote: Is stimpack enough to get away from a disruptor energy ball ? This thing is surprisingly fast Yes | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
The disruptor's attack actually moves faster than stimmed bio, but not by much and with the limited time you should be able to get away. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On November 24 2015 12:21 Pursuit_ wrote: The disruptor's attack actually moves faster than stimmed bio, but not by much and with the limited time you should be able to get away. Retreating is not the way to go against disruptor IMHO. If you ball it all up and move command back, not only you'll lose DPS (while still taking stalker and collo shots), but you risk grouping up and taking massive damage against the disruptor if you reacted too late (i.e. the disruptor ball caught up to your bio). I think it is better to accept that your are going to take a few losses due to disruptors and just split instead of retreating. Kinda like against banelings: you know you're going to lose marines, but as long as you don't lose too many, it is still perfectly acceptable. And you can then hit't'attack into the protoss and focus fire the disruptor/stalkers/most expensive units down. Then again, this is only my own experience so far (diamond level) and I haven't played against that many protosses. Any high level player around to confirm/infirm ? | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On November 24 2015 17:54 LoneYoShi wrote: Retreating is not the way to go against disruptor IMHO. If you ball it all up and move command back, not only you'll lose DPS (while still taking stalker and collo shots), but you risk grouping up and taking massive damage against the disruptor if you reacted too late (i.e. the disruptor ball caught up to your bio). I think it is better to accept that your are going to take a few losses due to disruptors and just split instead of retreating. Kinda like against banelings: you know you're going to lose marines, but as long as you don't lose too many, it is still perfectly acceptable. And you can then hit't'attack into the protoss and focus fire the disruptor/stalkers/most expensive units down. Then again, this is only my own experience so far (diamond level) and I haven't played against that many protosses. Any high level player around to confirm/infirm ? I strongly disagree. I like that you're discussing this though. (1) The comparison: you trade marines against banelings so Zerg has to spend more gas building banes and not mutas. It's not really "okay" to lose marines, there is just literally no way to dodge them. (2) The Disruptor is capable of ending the game in one shot. This is obviously very circumstantial, but in TvP if an engagement is too one-sided, the counter attack usually ends the game, or causes game-ending damage (for either side). You simply cannot accept a hit from the Disruptor unless you're way ahead--or at least decently ahead. (Maybe there is an exception for a super-wide open engagement where you're pre-split in a near full-surround) (3) By retreating you lose DPS, of course, because you're move commanding, but you're also moving out of range of many of the Protoss units, so their army loses DPS too. (4) Splitting works in small engagement versus Disruptors, but I'm seeing most Protoss open with at least one Colossus (usually two) before switching into Disruptors (this is after the Warp Prism attack, mind you). So, when you actually face the Disruptor, it's a primary engagement, and if your tactic is "splitting" you're playing with fire, because if burst damage instantly takes down 2-3 marauders and 3-4 marines, you're going to lose the fight badly. (5) In Archon Mode, a critical mass of Disruptors (about four, I'd say) can permanently stalemate an engagement. There is simply no way to engage the Protoss deathball without getting utterly land-slided. This is because with single-minded focus on the army, there can always be one Nova ball flying at your army (forces move commands, or causes brutal damage--either way, damage is done). (5.a) This is similar to once Terran gets the Liberator count to 4+. If Terran deploys the Libs into Defender mode, the Protoss is strongly discouraged from attacking into that space, unless they've a plan to focus down the Libs quickly. (Libs are single-target burst damage -- very different than AOE burst damage, like the Disruptor). I've yet to find a weakness in the Protoss deathball once the Disruptor count gets to four. It's mobile, has a big range, and can cause terrible, terrible damage. At least the Libs can't move and have a few counters. Since the Disruptor is on the ground, there just doesn't seem to be a way to focus it down when it is inside a death ball. The weakness is to not fight the deathball (which is maybe the point, from a design perspective? I don't know). Basically, because it's difficult to control, the weakness is that Protoss might make a micro mistake : / | ||
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Wein
Brazil452 Posts
I feel protoss has as lot of tolls in early game now to harass and im seeing a lot of Oracles/Adept allins in 2 base, its pretty strong if you dont scout properly. And i cant drop because the new MSC Photon Overcharge just destroy my poor marines. I should be using more Liberators? MMM doesn't work anymore like used to work in HotS? Im coming back to LotV and im feeling a bit lost lol | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
On November 24 2015 17:54 LoneYoShi wrote: Retreating is not the way to go against disruptor IMHO. If you ball it all up and move command back, not only you'll lose DPS (while still taking stalker and collo shots), but you risk grouping up and taking massive damage against the disruptor if you reacted too late (i.e. the disruptor ball caught up to your bio). I think it is better to accept that your are going to take a few losses due to disruptors and just split instead of retreating. Kinda like against banelings: you know you're going to lose marines, but as long as you don't lose too many, it is still perfectly acceptable. And you can then hit't'attack into the protoss and focus fire the disruptor/stalkers/most expensive units down. Then again, this is only my own experience so far (diamond level) and I haven't played against that many protosses. Any high level player around to confirm/infirm ? I'm masters and in my experience it is better to just run away and then re-engage after. (Unless they just have 1 and you're clearly going to win the fight anyways, then just attempt to split). And it goes without saying that if you can snipe the disruptor in time that's always the best option. | ||
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
On November 25 2015 10:50 Wein wrote: Im struggling as well against Disruptor, in gerenal im getting stomped in TvP. I feel protoss has as lot of tolls in early game now to harass and im seeing a lot of Oracles/Adept allins in 2 base, its pretty strong if you dont scout properly. And i cant drop because the new MSC Photon Overcharge just destroy my poor marines. I should be using more Liberators? MMM doesn't work anymore like used to work in HotS? Im coming back to LotV and im feeling a bit lost lol In my experience if I survive the early game in TvP i feel pretty confident that I can win. A 2-3 base MMM + liberator ball is incredibly powerful. Just make sure you cross your i's and dot your t's (wall-off against adepts, turret in time against oracles, and don't take too much damage to warp-prism/adept harass) and you should be in a great position. | ||
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Wein
Brazil452 Posts
On November 25 2015 11:29 Kashll wrote: In my experience if I survive the early game in TvP i feel pretty confident that I can win. A 2-3 base MMM + liberator ball is incredibly powerful. Just make sure you cross your i's and dot your t's (wall-off against adepts, turret in time against oracles, and don't take too much damage to warp-prism/adept harass) and you should be in a great position. Its viable to use Liberator for harass purposes in TvP? Because of the new WP a lot of protoss open early robo so mine drops dont work well anymore. I like a drop/harass oriented style of play and like i said i feel right now the protoss has the advantage on the harass department. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On November 25 2015 10:50 Wein wrote: Im struggling as well against Disruptor, in gerenal im getting stomped in TvP. I feel protoss has as lot of tolls in early game now to harass and im seeing a lot of Oracles/Adept allins in 2 base, its pretty strong if you dont scout properly. And i cant drop because the new MSC Photon Overcharge just destroy my poor marines. I should be using more Liberators? MMM doesn't work anymore like used to work in HotS? Im coming back to LotV and im feeling a bit lost lol You can actually play a very MMM heavy style if you want to, as long as you are on top of your army control and dont' take disruptor hits when you aren't looking. The weakness of disruptors is that their shots are quite likely to miss, and they aren't that great in straight up-fights because not all of them will have a shot, and if you target them well (which protoss can't micro away from, because they are immobile when shooting) then you can avoid damage because the ball cancels. Although more Polt, less Maru, as pylon overcharge is pretty good, and a map-control focused style is stronger with larger base counts. | ||
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On November 25 2015 00:20 TimeSpiral wrote: I strongly disagree. I like that you're discussing this though. (1) The comparison: you trade marines against banelings so Zerg has to spend more gas building banes and not mutas. It's not really "okay" to lose marines, there is just literally no way to dodge them. (2) The Disruptor is capable of ending the game in one shot. This is obviously very circumstantial, but in TvP if an engagement is too one-sided, the counter attack usually ends the game, or causes game-ending damage (for either side). You simply cannot accept a hit from the Disruptor unless you're way ahead--or at least decently ahead. (Maybe there is an exception for a super-wide open engagement where you're pre-split in a near full-surround) (3) By retreating you lose DPS, of course, because you're move commanding, but you're also moving out of range of many of the Protoss units, so their army loses DPS too. (4) Splitting works in small engagement versus Disruptors, but I'm seeing most Protoss open with at least one Colossus (usually two) before switching into Disruptors (this is after the Warp Prism attack, mind you). So, when you actually face the Disruptor, it's a primary engagement, and if your tactic is "splitting" you're playing with fire, because if burst damage instantly takes down 2-3 marauders and 3-4 marines, you're going to lose the fight badly. (5) In Archon Mode, a critical mass of Disruptors (about four, I'd say) can permanently stalemate an engagement. There is simply no way to engage the Protoss deathball without getting utterly land-slided. This is because with single-minded focus on the army, there can always be one Nova ball flying at your army (forces move commands, or causes brutal damage--either way, damage is done). (5.a) This is similar to once Terran gets the Liberator count to 4+. If Terran deploys the Libs into Defender mode, the Protoss is strongly discouraged from attacking into that space, unless they've a plan to focus down the Libs quickly. (Libs are single-target burst damage -- very different than AOE burst damage, like the Disruptor). I've yet to find a weakness in the Protoss deathball once the Disruptor count gets to four. It's mobile, has a big range, and can cause terrible, terrible damage. At least the Libs can't move and have a few counters. Since the Disruptor is on the ground, there just doesn't seem to be a way to focus it down when it is inside a death ball. The weakness is to not fight the deathball (which is maybe the point, from a design perspective? I don't know). Basically, because it's difficult to control, the weakness is that Protoss might make a micro mistake : / On November 25 2015 11:27 Kashll wrote: I'm masters and in my experience it is better to just run away and then re-engage after. (Unless they just have 1 and you're clearly going to win the fight anyways, then just attempt to split). And it goes without saying that if you can snipe the disruptor in time that's always the best option. Hmm, interesting answers. I'll have to take a better look into that then and try the "retretating" strat again. My problem was that often when I try retreating, the Nova catches up to my bio and does its terrible, terrible damage (costing me the game). While with splitting, I generally manage to mitigate the damage from a few disruptors (up to ~3), and once the disruptors are on cool down, my bio has a field day against the remaining gateball. Then again, I generally play a very drop/multitask heavy style and rarely fight head-on except when I have a big army advantage, so there's also that to consider (why splitting seems effective to me). I'll try it out again and let you know. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On November 25 2015 19:59 Golgotha wrote: Sometimes I feel like I am going All in when I want to play standard. So I'm going to try and 3 base all the time from now on. Can someone tell me when I should get my third as Terran? Like what things cue you guys to say: "I need to expand right now". I am new to Terran so I don't know when it's the right time in my builds. As Z, it's fucking easy to expand but for terran it seems a lot different. There are three possible times that you can build your third. A) In TvZ and TvT you often build it after you have your 1-1-1 infrastructure set up but before you add 2nd and 3rd barracks. B) When you are on 3 barracks infrastructure with medivacs and stim near done or almost done but haven't yet built your 4th and 5th barracks. C) Almost immediately after you build your 4th and 5th barracks. Cases B and C are most relevant for TvT and TvP. Note that for case C, if you don't build your 3rd CC immediately, then you won't really be able to afford it. Building your third a significant amount of time after you finish rax 4 and 5 is not worth it because you will have to cut units for it, and your main will run out soon anyway so it's better to just wait and float that over. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On November 25 2015 18:16 LoneYoShi wrote: Hmm, interesting answers. I'll have to take a better look into that then and try the "retretating" strat again. My problem was that often when I try retreating, the Nova catches up to my bio and does its terrible, terrible damage (costing me the game). While with splitting, I generally manage to mitigate the damage from a few disruptors (up to ~3), and once the disruptors are on cool down, my bio has a field day against the remaining gateball. Then again, I generally play a very drop/multitask heavy style and rarely fight head-on except when I have a big army advantage, so there's also that to consider (why splitting seems effective to me). I'll try it out again and let you know. Cool! Just keep in mind, you have to start retreating instantly when you see the nova ball come out. Don't dilly-dally around, and try to get in that extra volley, otherwise it will catch you, and do terrible, terrible damage. Good luck! | ||
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Lemartes
Austria57 Posts
I never really played HotS, only WoL, so I don´t really have any clue about alot of openings that have been around. So I´ve been trying ReaperHellion harass but I just get fucked by speedlings, even offcreep. It´s so silly if you watch the pros its just move back, shot and repeat. Atleast it looks like that to me. Is there anything I am missing? When I try to do it I loose so much hp every shot and before I kill enough lings to force him back I either micro in a corner (:, or have to retreat home. Do I have to micro reapers and hellions seperatly? Is this opening even viable in LotV? I guess my best bet is just trying long enough till I get the shottiming right and stuff? | ||
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MirG.HeaT
4 Posts
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DrDevice
Canada132 Posts
On November 26 2015 07:26 MirG.HeaT wrote: What matchup? What opening build did you do? What is your strategy and your opponents strategy?When should you take 2nd refinery? 3rd? 4th? These details are needed to give you a meaningful answer. Watching pro games and watching high level player streams can be a good way to see how they are doing their gas timings. | ||
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ColtonDaTerran
United States5 Posts
TvP Twilight > Robo 1:24 Nexus 3:09 Twilight 4:09 Robo TvP 1 Gate Expo > Oracle 1:22 Nexus 2:14-2:37 Stargate TvP Warp Prism drop 3:00 Robo (will have two gas before expo) TvP General: 5:00 3rd base if not doing 2 base all in/push TvZ 3 Hatch 3:07 Hatch 3:42 Roach TvZ 5:30-6:00 Lair starts | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
I have a bunch of MMM in one control group (1) all massed in front of my base. I want to load up some MM into the Medvac so that I can harass. I'm not really picky, I want to pick up whatever asap and quickly. So I press 1 for ctrlgroup 1 and load up 4 dropships and then move the dropships to the landing zone. the problem is that my entire army follows. What's the best way to do this? Ive seen polt and he seems to have no trouble and it's quite beautiful. im no polt but I want to learn something if there is a better way. At the moment, what i do I just load up, then as dropships fire away, I Alt-2 them to remove them from ctrl 1 and have group 1 just back off. any better way? faster is better for me. thanks! | ||
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