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On September 16 2019 22:31 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2019 22:17 Ryu3600 wrote:On September 16 2019 20:09 MockHamill wrote:On September 16 2019 19:49 Shuffleblade wrote:Yo! I'm mid dia terran player and I feel kind of helpless against proxy tempest rushes. I usually go reaper 2-1-1 opening into stim timing with two medivacs and marines. I would like some advice about what to do when I'm facing that horrendous shield battery tempest crap, it usually just destroys me with their range. Marines are useless, vikings gets kited and I don't like cyclones (is that the only answer?  ). Last time I tried to counter attack and make it a base trade but I realized the tempest always win that anyway. What should I do if I manage to scout it in time? Edit: Wrote my build just to communicate where I am build wise, usually have the second rax building when I scout it. Obviously I don't keep on my build path after scouting it You need to do the following to beat it. 1. Scout it as early as possible. 2. Reactor vikings. 3. Stall with turrets so that he can not pick off your vikings with superior range. 4. Make marines and a single tank for added protection. 5. Once you have enough vikings to 1-shot the Tempest kill his army, then go and kill him. I never got cyclones to work vs this, getting a tank too early is also a mistake in my opinion. The key is getting as many vikings as possible, as fast as possible. If you get a low ground bunker right after your rax it is even better, then you can prevent him from having shield batteries at your natural, can get more gas since you are on 2 bases, and have 2 starports for even faster viking production. I just go 1-1-1 into 3-1-1 and make 4x marine 1x mine (then 1x cyclone) and reactor Viking - and then I try to go for stim +1 and cs together cause once you have stim and a bunch of marines and Vikings it is really easy to just out DPS the shield battery. - Also not to be that guy but I strongly recommend you learn a different build for TvP. The 2-1-1 is neat and fun but its actually a really bad build for numerous reasons (especially in TvP) mostly being that it is too slow, cuts too much eco and marine only isn't that great vs toss. I find 1-1-1 to not only be the most versatile but also the most consistent as it can reliably go into anything. Thank you for the advice, sounds like a killer army. Regarding my build I actually think it is the best choice for me to improve, I have played maybe 30 games since july and before that I've been on hiatus for over a year. I want to play that style in TvZ, it is when I have the most fun in the game and for me to split my focus on too many openings when I'm still not used to play the game is not good. Doing similar builds over and over really helps me improve bit by bit, both the build but also micro/macro management. To be frank I'm only in dia and here it is more important to be comfortable with what you do and get decent at micro/macro than playing the meta. I suck in TvP (no matter my opening), I hate the matchup and this is pretty much the only time I have fun in the matchup. I rather lose with this build and have fun than play the meta and win (probably wouldn't win either way tough xD) and not have fun.
Playing for fun is very fair I just wanted to give my opinion as I usually find most people who do play the 2-1-1 usually get stuck with it as it puts you very far behind just due to the fact its meant to cut economy. The other thing I notice is most people who do it usually haven't actually tried some of the fun 1-1-1 variants. (This is coming from someone who did used to do the 2-1-1) Personally I enjoy hellions in TvZ because they are safer early game and more economical. So rather than using 2 medivacs with 16 marines I do multiple drops of 16 marines, except with more stuff behind it and better upgrades and its just a minute later. But it depends as well I guess on - do you like playing macro games or do you want games to end quickly off of something aggressive. I personally like timings that have strong macro-followups so while I cannot justify the 2-1-1 I can justify builds like 3rax in TvP (Which if you like 2-1-1 you would probably love this build more!)
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On September 16 2019 19:49 Shuffleblade wrote:Yo! I'm mid dia terran player and I feel kind of helpless against proxy tempest rushes. I usually go reaper 2-1-1 opening into stim timing with two medivacs and marines. I would like some advice about what to do when I'm facing that horrendous shield battery tempest crap, it usually just destroys me with their range. Marines are useless, vikings gets kited and I don't like cyclones (is that the only answer? ). Last time I tried to counter attack and make it a base trade but I realized the tempest always win that anyway. What should I do if I manage to scout it in time? Edit: Wrote my build just to communicate where I am build wise, usually have the second rax building when I scout it. Obviously I don't keep on my build path after scouting it
If you can, you can also try to maybe drop 6-8 marines in a medivac into his main and wreck his economy. Then he can't support the tempest production anymore.
Since tempests have such low DPS, it'll take him a long time to break your defenses.
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On September 17 2019 00:50 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2019 22:31 Shuffleblade wrote:On September 16 2019 22:17 Ryu3600 wrote:On September 16 2019 20:09 MockHamill wrote:On September 16 2019 19:49 Shuffleblade wrote:Yo! I'm mid dia terran player and I feel kind of helpless against proxy tempest rushes. I usually go reaper 2-1-1 opening into stim timing with two medivacs and marines. I would like some advice about what to do when I'm facing that horrendous shield battery tempest crap, it usually just destroys me with their range. Marines are useless, vikings gets kited and I don't like cyclones (is that the only answer? ). Last time I tried to counter attack and make it a base trade but I realized the tempest always win that anyway. What should I do if I manage to scout it in time? Edit: Wrote my build just to communicate where I am build wise, usually have the second rax building when I scout it. Obviously I don't keep on my build path after scouting it You need to do the following to beat it. 1. Scout it as early as possible. 2. Reactor vikings. 3. Stall with turrets so that he can not pick off your vikings with superior range. 4. Make marines and a single tank for added protection. 5. Once you have enough vikings to 1-shot the Tempest kill his army, then go and kill him. I never got cyclones to work vs this, getting a tank too early is also a mistake in my opinion. The key is getting as many vikings as possible, as fast as possible. If you get a low ground bunker right after your rax it is even better, then you can prevent him from having shield batteries at your natural, can get more gas since you are on 2 bases, and have 2 starports for even faster viking production. I just go 1-1-1 into 3-1-1 and make 4x marine 1x mine (then 1x cyclone) and reactor Viking - and then I try to go for stim +1 and cs together cause once you have stim and a bunch of marines and Vikings it is really easy to just out DPS the shield battery. - Also not to be that guy but I strongly recommend you learn a different build for TvP. The 2-1-1 is neat and fun but its actually a really bad build for numerous reasons (especially in TvP) mostly being that it is too slow, cuts too much eco and marine only isn't that great vs toss. I find 1-1-1 to not only be the most versatile but also the most consistent as it can reliably go into anything. Thank you for the advice, sounds like a killer army. Regarding my build I actually think it is the best choice for me to improve, I have played maybe 30 games since july and before that I've been on hiatus for over a year. I want to play that style in TvZ, it is when I have the most fun in the game and for me to split my focus on too many openings when I'm still not used to play the game is not good. Doing similar builds over and over really helps me improve bit by bit, both the build but also micro/macro management. To be frank I'm only in dia and here it is more important to be comfortable with what you do and get decent at micro/macro than playing the meta. I suck in TvP (no matter my opening), I hate the matchup and this is pretty much the only time I have fun in the matchup. I rather lose with this build and have fun than play the meta and win (probably wouldn't win either way tough xD) and not have fun. Playing for fun is very fair I just wanted to give my opinion as I usually find most people who do play the 2-1-1 usually get stuck with it as it puts you very far behind just due to the fact its meant to cut economy. The other thing I notice is most people who do it usually haven't actually tried some of the fun 1-1-1 variants. (This is coming from someone who did used to do the 2-1-1) Personally I enjoy hellions in TvZ because they are safer early game and more economical. So rather than using 2 medivacs with 16 marines I do multiple drops of 16 marines, except with more stuff behind it and better upgrades and its just a minute later. But it depends as well I guess on - do you like playing macro games or do you want games to end quickly off of something aggressive. I personally like timings that have strong macro-followups so while I cannot justify the 2-1-1 I can justify builds like 3rax in TvP (Which if you like 2-1-1 you would probably love this build more!)
Good advice, I don't intend to play like this forever its just the right way for me right now.
I can't do macro at the moment because I'm too inexperienced and bad, if my aggression gets decisively defended I usually end up building my army and tech up sitting in my base not knowing what to do until he attacks and kills me. So what I'm doing right now is trying to do the aggression, tech and get third behind it and hope I do some damage so that my follow up with added marauders +1+1 and liberators can keep doing damage. As I'm doing this my macro is steadily improving and hopefully there will come a point where I feel I can play for the longer game and not be so desperate to end it before three base. I don't think that will ever happen in TvP since I refuse mech and bio play would need for me to master ghosts and thats just a long looong way off right now.
Yeah 3 rax is probably pretty good for me, but it is decidedly different from my usual builds and will probably slow down my progress of getting better at the game. I will keep you tips in mind and I'm sure it will be useful in a while when I've gotten into the groove of things
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Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips.
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On September 19 2019 23:31 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:
Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips.
Mass bc
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On September 19 2019 23:31 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:
Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips.
In my experience if you let Protoss get a high Carrier count the game is already lost. I think a better solution is to
1) Damage the protoss economy as much as possible with mine or hellion drops.
2) Do a tank/hellbat/thor/mine push as soon as they start to transition to air, and try to end the game there.
In theory you can go BC but in practice Protoss just switches to tempest and kite you to death. Even if you teleport on top of the tempest you typically lose every BC in the process.
So killing as many probes as possible and do a kill-push before they can get their late game army is more reliable.
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every pro game where terran has gotten mass BC (as in pure lategame mass air with 15-20+ BC) has been a one sided slaughter in favor of the BCs, tempests get absolutely dumpstered. it's in fact protoss that needs to push before terran gets BC.
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On September 20 2019 10:01 brickrd wrote:
every pro game where terran has gotten mass BC (as in pure lategame mass air with 15-20+ BC) has been a one sided slaughter in favor of the BCs, tempests get absolutely dumpstered. it's in fact protoss that needs to push before terran gets BC.
But what percentage of pro games where Terran goes mech ever reaches that stage? If you do not enter the late game with a massive lead managing to get enough BCs is very rare.
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On September 20 2019 03:38 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 23:31 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:
Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips. In my experience if you let Protoss get a high Carrier count the game is already lost. I think a better solution is to 1) Damage the protoss economy as much as possible with mine or hellion drops. 2) Do a tank/hellbat/thor/mine push as soon as they start to transition to air, and try to end the game there. In theory you can go BC but in practice Protoss just switches to tempest and kite you to death. Even if you teleport on top of the tempest you typically lose every BC in the process. So killing as many probes as possible and do a kill-push before they can get their late game army is more reliable.
I always try to end the game before that point of course, but sometimes it just doesn't pan out that way haha
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On September 21 2019 03:33 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 03:38 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 23:31 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:
Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips. In my experience if you let Protoss get a high Carrier count the game is already lost. I think a better solution is to 1) Damage the protoss economy as much as possible with mine or hellion drops. 2) Do a tank/hellbat/thor/mine push as soon as they start to transition to air, and try to end the game there. In theory you can go BC but in practice Protoss just switches to tempest and kite you to death. Even if you teleport on top of the tempest you typically lose every BC in the process. So killing as many probes as possible and do a kill-push before they can get their late game army is more reliable. I always try to end the game before that point of course, but sometimes it just doesn't pan out that way haha
Just go mass thor hellbat and whatever siege tanks you had before, when you do your final 200/200 push bring scvs and make turrets and slow push them.
I make command centers and push with PF's at the final 200 push but it's pretty bad I just do it because it's fun, gl homie
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On September 23 2019 08:53 Conut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2019 03:33 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:On September 20 2019 03:38 MockHamill wrote:On September 19 2019 23:31 -IAEVAI-KolosS wrote:
Hi all mech players out there,
What are you favorite unit compositions vs Carriers + Distruptors late game TvP ? I had decent success with Hellbat (low count - to tank damage), Vikings (High count - Target fire carriers), Tanks (Makes it harder for distruptors) and lots of mines but there must be another way.
Thanks for your tips. In my experience if you let Protoss get a high Carrier count the game is already lost. I think a better solution is to 1) Damage the protoss economy as much as possible with mine or hellion drops. 2) Do a tank/hellbat/thor/mine push as soon as they start to transition to air, and try to end the game there. In theory you can go BC but in practice Protoss just switches to tempest and kite you to death. Even if you teleport on top of the tempest you typically lose every BC in the process. So killing as many probes as possible and do a kill-push before they can get their late game army is more reliable. I always try to end the game before that point of course, but sometimes it just doesn't pan out that way haha Just go mass thor hellbat and whatever siege tanks you had before, when you do your final 200/200 push bring scvs and make turrets and slow push them. I make command centers and push with PF's at the final 200 push but it's pretty bad I just do it because it's fun, gl homie
Also it's important to aim your thors to shoot the carriers and shiftque the carriers.
If you have enough thors take two groups and shiftque different Carrie's and the fight changes drastically, once shift que'd control the tanks and focus on disruptors, fuck the hellbats they will do whatever lmao assuming its most a air army they aren't important, they are just there in case they have a mass zealot rewarp
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I am basicly struggeling with Bio vs Zerg since HotS made the tanks worse (slow weapon cycle).
Mostly It's the fights vs. higher Baneling counts (=20+) that require micro with no time to macro cycle in between. In best case I trade evenly, in worst case I trade all my groundarmy for the banes and some lings.
In every case I start to float X000minerals after every larger engagement.
Big Gabe now said multiple times on his stream, that even an "AFK" Zerg army of ling-bling will trade decently against MMM, while Terran at least needs to stim split, kite, all while using Medevacs on hold- while doing macro to maybe achieve a better than even trade. "On the same level Zerg has more tools to defeat terran (bio) than the other way around....and on the new maps you can not counter attack because of the distance" - BigGabe
Simple Question: Mechin it happen and shut up, or "git gud" on the macro side of things and overwhelm ?
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On September 27 2019 15:06 KT_Elwood wrote:
I am basicly struggeling with Bio vs Zerg since HotS made the tanks worse (slow weapon cycle).
Mostly It's the fights vs. higher Baneling counts (=20+) that require micro with no time to macro cycle in between. In best case I trade evenly, in worst case I trade all my groundarmy for the banes and some lings.
In every case I start to float X000minerals after every larger engagement.
Big Gabe now said multiple times on his stream, that even an "AFK" Zerg army of ling-bling will trade decently against MMM, while Terran at least needs to stim split, kite, all while using Medevacs on hold- while doing macro to maybe achieve a better than even trade. "On the same level Zerg has more tools to defeat terran (bio) than the other way around....and on the new maps you can not counter attack because of the distance" - BigGabe
Simple Question: Mechin it happen and shut up, or "git gud" on the macro side of things and overwhelm ?
Thanks for your post :-) ! I'd say my answer is actually both your suggestions. I actually started playing mech because I just couldn't micro decently in exactly these situations in TvZ. If you want/can invest the time to develop your macro whilst improving your micro it's probably a more rewarding playstyle.
But if you're like me who plays the game to cool off and don't care about not being Grandmaster, mech could be an alternative and it's rewarding in it's own rights. You can develop your macro skills (mech units costs more supply so more frequent potentiel supply block) and not have to micro your heart out at the same time on the battlefield.
TL:DR: Do one or the other or both and just have fun.
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Mech works better, still Protoss to beat. Mass Tempests without PDD seems very overpowered
Thors work though, but you need pure thor, because any other unit will block their pathing, and thors facing zealots or immortals just MELT.
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TY incorporated thors into his bio tank army in GSL Super Tournament against hero's tempest army and easily dismantled him, it was absurdly one sided in favor of terran
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On October 07 2019 05:52 brickrd wrote:
TY incorporated thors into his bio tank army in GSL Super Tournament against hero's tempest army and easily dismantled him, it was absurdly one sided in favor of terran
Thors works until Protoss start adding in disruptors. Bio can dodge Disruptor shots, Thors not so much.
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On October 07 2019 21:59 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2019 05:52 brickrd wrote:
TY incorporated thors into his bio tank army in GSL Super Tournament against hero's tempest army and easily dismantled him, it was absurdly one sided in favor of terran Thors works until Protoss start adding in disruptors. Bio can dodge Disruptor shots, Thors not so much.
Once the disruptor comes out you need tanks or it's actually not possible to fight with the thors unless you have a good position or lead, then you have this clunky army of thor tanks marines marauders, it still works just gotta find a good balance for antiair, micro the marines, make sure the thors hit the right things and micro the tanks to shoot disruptors, usually it's a bit to much for me and I just lose the fight but if my micro is on point it's a good fight for terran.
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Hi terrans of TL, I'm looking for help regarding my TvP. Right now, I'm at ~35% while playing "standard macro bio", and this is a typical example of how most of my games go:
https://drop.sc/replay/11999229
To be honest, I don't know what to think of it and I'm looking for outside opinions.
My analysis:
- I open with a greedy 3rd CC before racks 2 & 3, which goes unpunished. My 2-mine drops kills somewhere between 5 and 10 probes. I lose the mines but not the medivac. The pressure he tries on my 3rd with pure gateway units gets deflected easily, and he loses a decent amount of zealots for no gain.
- At this point, I'm up by 20-30 supply. SCV count is equal to his probe count (and I have mules). So I'm ahead in army, ahead in economy, and I don't think my tech is behind either (2nd starport with reactor, ghost academy building). The only aspect in which I am behind is upgrades.
- I figure that I have the advantage, and try to push it by attacking his 3rd. My army gets walked over. We're now equal in supply. He crosses the map, takes a fight moments before his 3-3 finishes (so we're both 2-2 at this point), he walks through me. Game over.
- I probably should have backed of the engagement by his 3rd seeing he had 2 collo and I had no vikings yet. My focus fire with the vikings was also lacking severely.
- My 4th should have been up sooner. A standing PF instead of a building CC would have given me help in holding his attack.
Any tips, ideas, anything ?
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On October 09 2019 01:59 LoneYoShi wrote:
I open with a greedy 3rd CC before racks 2 & 3, which goes unpunished. My 2-mine drops kills somewhere between 5 and 10 probes. I lose the mines but not the medivac. The pressure he tries on my 3rd with pure gateway units gets deflected easily, and he loses a decent amount of zealots for no gain.
You kill exactly 5 probes, which is about what's to be expected, but you actually lost the medivac even before the mines.
On October 09 2019 01:59 LoneYoShi wrote:At this point, I'm up by 20-30 supply. SCV count is equal to his probe count (and I have mules). So I'm ahead in army, ahead in economy, and I don't think my tech is behind either (2nd starport with reactor, ghost academy building). The only aspect in which I am behind is upgrades.
You start teching up as you move out, in itself that's not terrible. But you haven't seen his tech yet. You haven't seen his main, nor harassed him since the mine drop at the 5 minute mark. He could have been doing anything but you didn't even scan ahead before stimming into his 3rd. That's such a risky play to make. You also probably inadvertently delayed your own push by having stim be the last tech lab upgrade you start.
On October 09 2019 01:59 LoneYoShi wrote:[*] I figure that I have the advantage, and try to push it by attacking his 3rd. My army gets walked over. We're now equal in supply. He crosses the map, takes a fight moments before his 3-3 finishes (so we're both 2-2 at this point), he walks through me. Game over.
Your army doesn't get walked over at his 3rd. You trade nearly evenly even though you're down an upgrade for the majority of the fight, but you do lose a few extra units on the retreat and from rallying them across the map into his army.
However, the main crux of the game happens during this phase because your macro starts falling apart. While you move across the map, you are supply blocked for almost 2 minutes. The supply block only ends once you take the engagement and start losing units. You build up a bank of over 2k/1k in this time and during the fight. Considering the amount of resources at your disposal and the amount of production cycles you missed because of getting supply blocked, you should have still been up a lot in supply, and your 4th should have been close to finished (as you correctly identify yourself, it should have been a planetary well before the Protoss attacked). And because all of that went wrong in the macro department, at the end the Protoss pushes into you with a bigger, more powerful army (even though the upgrades are still even), and that time he does indeed walk through you. And all you can do is watch as you die with a bank that could afford you 6 BCs and 2 orbitals.
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EPT
