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The LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 15

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Bojas
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands2397 Posts
December 26 2015 23:15 GMT
#281
Depends on the map, I prefer to keep them close to the mineral line so you can pull workers to tank. If you position them close to the edge you might catch them going up and win easier, but if you are at the wrong entrance that might backfire.
On some maps there isn't much surface area, so the odds of catching them are higher.

On most maps I open like Pinhead in TvT and try to get a critical mass of hellions out. Try to lose as few scvs as possible while building up your hellion count.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
December 27 2015 03:08 GMT
#282
Well the advantage of putting spread around on edges seems to be that if it is a single reaper, you just kill it and deny the scout. The downside is if it is 3rax reaper or something you lose... so I guess it depends on how confident you are in your scouting. My experience anyways.
Senryakku
Profile Joined January 2015
France16 Posts
December 27 2015 13:35 GMT
#283
Do you guys have replays of TvT 3 rax reapers ? I actually never encoutered one, every terran I meet just do the 2 reaper 2 hellion banshee build.
HAPPYFUNBALL
Profile Joined December 2015
5 Posts
December 27 2015 20:18 GMT
#284
What are some good benchmarks for a new-ish Terran player to hit for macro play. For example:

- How quickly should I max my army?

- How many SCVs should I have at 3,5,8,10 minutes?

- How early should I take my second, third, fourth?

- If going MMM, how many of each unit should o try to have at 3,5,8 mins?

- How many production buildings should I try to have by 3,5,8,10 mins for bio and/or mech builds?

Some of these will likely have multiple answers, but upper and lower bounds would be nice to try to aim for. Right now, I feel like I do everything I can to keep my resource utilization high, but I have no idea what numbers are optimal for LOTV.

*crossposted at the behest of Jer99
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
December 28 2015 11:16 GMT
#285
If you play mech when do you start your upgrades and how many armouries do you use?

Currently I am not starting upgrades until I have 3 bases, 6 gases and 5 factories and a starport. Then I upgrade from 3 armouries at the same time. Not sure if this is optimal or not but it seems to be me that having more units early is more important to mech then being behind on upgrades, which you typically are anyway.
Guillermoman
Profile Joined October 2012
24 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-28 14:58:48
December 28 2015 14:58 GMT
#286
On December 28 2015 20:16 MockHamill wrote:
If you play mech when do you start your upgrades and how many armouries do you use?

Currently I am not starting upgrades until I have 3 bases, 6 gases and 5 factories and a starport. Then I upgrade from 3 armouries at the same time. Not sure if this is optimal or not but it seems to be me that having more units early is more important to mech then being behind on upgrades, which you typically are anyway.


I think you're on the right track, at least in game theory. Having units more matters than the upgrades, and I find myself getting armories up once I have three bases too. However, I am getting armories up earlier and I only get 2.

- Two armories ensures you get both weapons upgrades out. Armor is quite meaningless IMO as I don't think the armor reaches any key targets in any matchup, and even if there is you get upgrades so late you probably won't reach it anyway.

- My armory timings are:

- TvZ: 3 base, 6 gas, 3 factory (two tech lab, one reactor), 2 naked Starport (I open 2 port Banshee most games)
- TvT: 3 base, 6 gas, 1 Reactor Starport, 2 Factory w/ Tech lab, 2 Factory in production.

[e]..
Profile Joined December 2015
2 Posts
December 28 2015 15:19 GMT
#287
So I think I'm an outlier amongst most terran players. My strongest matchup is tvp and tvt, but i suffer greatly from tvz. I keep getting murdered by massive amounts of units by zerg and it's incredibly frustrating being off my timing and dying cause of it. How do I punish greedy zergs and what timing do you move out after you secure your 2nd, if at all? How do you survive the 200/200 onslaught? I think cutting back on marines and focusing on higher tech units such as the liberator helps and ghosts are great vs most late game units, but I feel like it's way easier for the zerg and it's infuriating :[. Maybe just my bias, I fucking suck at tvz.

Btw stuck at Plat, was one game away from diamond up until x11 zerg in a row and tilted back nearly 200 points. I'm so retarded fuck.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
December 28 2015 15:57 GMT
#288
Gas first against Protoss means you cannot start building one barracks and two supply depots fast enough to prevent him from entering your base (depending on the map).

So if he goes in he can build Pylons. Thus he cannon rushes you without even having to build cannons and can kill you before you even get a marine out.

I tried to kill of pylons with workers but he just built more pylons.

So gas first = auto loss since no wall? Or am I missing something?
JWD[9]
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
364 Posts
December 28 2015 16:25 GMT
#289
On December 28 2015 05:18 HAPPYFUNBALL wrote:
What are some good benchmarks for a new-ish Terran player to hit for macro play. For example:

- How quickly should I max my army?

- How many SCVs should I have at 3,5,8,10 minutes?

- How early should I take my second, third, fourth?

- If going MMM, how many of each unit should o try to have at 3,5,8 mins?

- How many production buildings should I try to have by 3,5,8,10 mins for bio and/or mech builds?

Some of these will likely have multiple answers, but upper and lower bounds would be nice to try to aim for. Right now, I feel like I do everything I can to keep my resource utilization high, but I have no idea what numbers are optimal for LOTV.

*crossposted at the behest of Jer99


That really really really depends on some factors. If you go for an early expand, and nothing much happens in the game (not many army trades) and you play bio, then aim for 200/200 around the 10 minute mark, 150/200 around 8 minutes.

24 per base, try to produce constantly. If you plan on expanding but could not yet, don't shy away from pre-producing scvs and oversaturate your main.

Answering that question is actually the way of creating a game plan. I tend to expand very late vs Protoss and get all the techstructures first, doing some cutsy stuff. Vs Zerg whenever I hit 400 minerals while producing reapers out of 3 rax. But you can do it differently, as long as you have a plan. (Marineking goes CC first into 3 rax marine without gas almost every game/Matchup)

It is really awesome to have enough medivacs to pick up your whole army, so for each maraudor and 6 marines have a medivac. But you will produce Marines and Maraudors earlier since starport comes later, so don't worry too much about the perfectly balanced composition.

That is the wrong question, since time is not the important factor, income is. So per saturated base, you want bases*4 - 1. So on one base you want 3 structures (enough to get minerals for an expand) on two you want 7 on three you want 11.
If you early expanded add 3 sturctures, when you natural is half way saturated go up to five, once you have both saturated go up to 7.
Bojas
Profile Joined December 2010
Netherlands2397 Posts
December 28 2015 16:38 GMT
#290
I'm sorry, but this post contains quite a few inaccuracies ^

As for HAPPYFUNBALL's first question: look at how pro Koreans play and take benchmarks from their replays, whenever they play a build that is similar to your build. Because builds and the level of greed matters a lot and you need to account for lost mining time from lost workers, you can't just take a random replay if you want precise benchmarks.

24 per base, try to produce constantly. If you plan on expanding but could not yet, don't shy away from pre-producing scvs and oversaturate your main.

You'd want 6 on gas and 16 on minerals, for 22 total. Your third base needs 16 workers on minerals and, depending on your playstyle, 1 or 2 gasses.

Your main base will lose a few nodes, so you'd want your 4th base done by the time 16 workers means oversaturation in your main, but this is high level stuff.

That is the wrong question, since time is not the important factor, income is. So per saturated base, you want bases*4 - 1. So on one base you want 3 structures (enough to get minerals for an expand) on two you want 7 on three you want 11.
If you early expanded add 3 sturctures, when you natural is half way saturated go up to five, once you have both saturated go up to 7.


I'm not sure what this is about, but a rough goal to aim for per matchup:
TvT 2 base: 5 barracks 1 factory 1 starport
TvT 3 base: 8 barracks 2 factories 1 starport
TvT 4 base: 8 barracks 3 factories 1 starport

(assuming standard marine tank composition)

TvZ 2 base: 5 barracks 1 factory 1 starport
TvZ 3 base: 8 barracks 2 factories 1 starport
TvZ 4 base: 11 barracks (not because it's efficient but because you need more tech labs for ghosts so you can make enough ghosts on time) 2 factories 1-2 starports depending on how many liberators you want/need, basically efficiency isn't what matters, it's being able to produce enough on time.

TvP is similar to the rest, just only 1 factory all game and 2-3 starports on 3-4 bases so you can pump liberators.



Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12839 Posts
December 28 2015 17:13 GMT
#291
What is the optimal (or a good) gameplan in TvT?
Like with the tankivacs, are the cheap semi doom drops in the main the best / fastest way to win?
WriterMaru
HAPPYFUNBALL
Profile Joined December 2015
5 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-29 04:29:21
December 29 2015 04:27 GMT
#292
On December 29 2015 02:13 Poopi wrote:
What is the optimal (or a good) gameplan in TvT?
Like with the tankivacs, are the cheap semi doom drops in the main the best / fastest way to win?


I usually go MMM + Mines with plenty of harassment. Leave mines all over the place and your opponent will wast tons of $$ on detection (Ravens, extra orbitals), play extremely cautiously (and get contained), or they'll all-in and get torn to pieces by all the mines you've laid outside your base.

Widow mines are scary af to most people; use this to your advantage and keep your opponent contained.

Edit: Another benefit to using MMM+M is that you know when he moves out and is vulnerable to in-base drops.
Toudeleski
Profile Joined August 2011
United States66 Posts
December 29 2015 05:16 GMT
#293
...no. Don't do that. Make tanks and medivacs. Meditanks, if you will. Do normal tvt things: positioning, doom drop etc. Except now it's faster.

A few mines around the map is fine, but you'll probably have spotter marines around the most common/direct path to your base(s) and along the sides where you might be able to spot drops.
glhf
PinheadXXXXXX
Profile Joined February 2012
United States897 Posts
December 29 2015 07:12 GMT
#294
On December 29 2015 02:13 Poopi wrote:
What is the optimal (or a good) gameplan in TvT?
Like with the tankivacs, are the cheap semi doom drops in the main the best / fastest way to win?

I think one of the best ways to play TvT currently is heavy marine heavy upgrade style. Think Bomber's TvT. I open with reaper expand into 1-1-1 on maps that aren't good for reapers, and 2 rax reaper into 3 rax stim on maps that are, and then get quick double upgrades for marines and rush up to 3 bases 8 barracks as quickly as possible. I play the midgame really aggressively, trying to trade constantly, keeping their tank count as low as possible, and then massing up for a large push when upgrades finish.

Reasoning:
-With tankivacs, it's a lot easier to get a lot of utility out of only a few tanks; even with only 1 factory production, with good micro, you can keep a reasonable number (4-5) around; enough so that you can take most fights.
-Tankivacs also allow you to re-position your tanks in a way that is immediately adventageous for you. E.g. when you are sieging a position you can drop two tanks within the range of a single exposed tank, and then move your exposed tanks when they are outnumbered. Thus tank count matters less, as do tank upgrades.
-Since you don't need to spend as much on factories and tanks, those extra scvs mining minerals (no gases on the third!) can fuel a higher barracks count earlier. Since you don't need to scan as much (due to fewer tank standoffs) those mules can also help build your barracks count.
-In the hectic world of LotV, where TvT is full of constant trading and a lot of chaotic fighting, a heavily upgraded force of marines can do a lot better than a group of tanks that require much more precise positioning.
-Marines are much less susceptible to positioning errors than tanks. If most of your army's firepower is in a group of 12 tanks, you can easily lose fights because a few tanks were too far to the front or something. A mass of marines is much harder to mess up with and can more easily punish your opponent's errors.

Again, think Bomber style. Early game is quite passive, with an early third and early double upgrades. Midgame is constant trading, keeping opponent's tank count low, until you have an upgrade advantage where you can try to hit a 2/2 timing. This should either win you the game or put you far enough ahead that you can expand more and win at or before your 3/3 timing.
Taeja the one true Byunjwa~
CharAznable2
Profile Joined July 2015
26 Posts
December 29 2015 18:57 GMT
#295
Is there a way to cheese protoss? All in against them? Because I think toss has way too many openers, builds, all ins, and we are stuck If just a go macro build or go heavy mine against them.
deth
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Australia1757 Posts
December 30 2015 02:13 GMT
#296
On December 29 2015 01:38 Bojas wrote:

I'm not sure what this is about, but a rough goal to aim for per matchup:
TvT 2 base: 5 barracks 1 factory 1 starport
TvT 3 base: 8 barracks 2 factories 1 starport
TvT 4 base: 8 barracks 3 factories 1 starport

(assuming standard marine tank composition)

TvZ 2 base: 5 barracks 1 factory 1 starport
TvZ 3 base: 8 barracks 2 factories 1 starport
TvZ 4 base: 11 barracks (not because it's efficient but because you need more tech labs for ghosts so you can make enough ghosts on time) 2 factories 1-2 starports depending on how many liberators you want/need, basically efficiency isn't what matters, it's being able to produce enough on time.

TvP is similar to the rest, just only 1 factory all game and 2-3 starports on 3-4 bases so you can pump liberators.



This isn't hots anymore, you can't afford 8 rax 2 fac 1 starport and still produce expansions as needed. You mine out so fast you should go for 7 rax 2 fac or 8 rax 1 fac on 3 base so you can always be making an expansion as your bases mine out. You need a 4th as you mine out the main, a 5th as the nat mines out etc etc, so its very very rare you'll ever be on more than 3 base saturation unless you're stupidly far ahead or are split-map ruins of seras.
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
December 30 2015 02:45 GMT
#297
On December 30 2015 03:57 CharAznable2 wrote:
Is there a way to cheese protoss? All in against them? Because I think toss has way too many openers, builds, all ins, and we are stuck If just a go macro build or go heavy mine against them.


I have a very good winrate with a 1 base marine-tank-liberator push ala old WoL 1-1-1 style. (I build 2 rax though). I don't think it should work really but at diamond or lower its the best I have come up with. If anyone has a better answer I too would love to hear it.
HAPPYFUNBALL
Profile Joined December 2015
5 Posts
December 30 2015 07:51 GMT
#298
So, I started using a reactor rax fast expand build today, and while it's very efficient, it seems like every reasonably competent opponent expects it. Two tanks, 14 marines, and a medivac at 4:30 seems like one of the two bio builds that the majority of terrans use these days (the ther being 2 rax reapers). It's odd, but once I started using it, no less than 5 of my opponents did the same exact thing!

Perhaps it makes more sense to vary up the build a little bit? I actually had more success when using a MMM+Mines build. Bear in mind that this is relatively low level play too.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
December 30 2015 14:00 GMT
#299
Provided that you are going for 1-1-1 pressure while building your CC in base after your factory has started, is there any downside to avoid supply depots in the wall to your main?

I was thinking using the rax, factory and starport as the initial wall before moving out and pressure the Zerg while floating out the CC to my natural.

I think about 20% of my losses to Zerg are due to baneling busts so this should make me almost immune. Is there any downside to walling off like this?
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
December 30 2015 21:33 GMT
#300
Well it is freaking annoying to have to lift your buildings to leave your base.
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