EPTHOW IS THIS POSSIBLE???? I'm honestly in shock right now. Is mass cyclone an auto win? Nothing counters it?
The LotV Terran Help Me Thread - Page 14
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE???? I'm honestly in shock right now. Is mass cyclone an auto win? Nothing counters it? | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1560 Posts
On December 24 2015 12:09 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I'm a Protoss player. i just vs a terren who went ONLY Cyclones with ZERO upgrades. I had 1-1-3 upgrades. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE???? I'm honestly in shock right now. Is mass cyclone an auto win? Nothing counters it? Probably a troll game where a player was much better than you Simple answer to cyclone is blink stalkers. Yoy have any idea each cyclone costs and how much hp it has? | ||
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EatingBomber
1017 Posts
On December 24 2015 13:45 jinjin5000 wrote: Probably a troll game where a player was much better than you Simple answer to cyclone is blink stalkers. Yoy have any idea each cyclone costs and how much hp it has? There are many answers to pure Cyclone. Basically, you need something that is fast and resistant to kiting - mass Blink Stalkers, jinjin5000 suggested, is ideal, but other compositions are also viable against pure Cyclone - I think you can even go pure mass Phoenix from 2 Stargates. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1560 Posts
On December 24 2015 14:03 EatingBomber wrote: There are many answers to pure Cyclone. Basically, you need something that is fast and resistant to kiting - mass Blink Stalkers, jinjin5000 suggested, is ideal, but other compositions are also viable against pure Cyclone - I think you can even go pure mass Phoenix from 2 Stargates. Hell enough adepts kill cyclones. Cyclone cant really take much damage;immortal 2 hits it and stalkers are incredible vs it after blink | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 24 2015 14:03 EatingBomber wrote: There are many answers to pure Cyclone. Basically, you need something that is fast and resistant to kiting - mass Blink Stalkers, jinjin5000 suggested, is ideal, but other compositions are also viable against pure Cyclone - I think you can even go pure mass Phoenix from 2 Stargates. Pretty much everything except mass sentries work. Immortals are good too. Sure in theory you can get kited forever, but in practise the lockon range is so little more than immortal range, you will always take at least one shot. And one shot from an immortal really hurts. The immortal then simply pulls back while his friends go forward, and you lose your lock. Since lockon doesn't scale with normal upgrades, upgrading Cyclones is not that important. But you really should easily counter it unless the other guy simply is much better. Only I wouldn't try the mass phoenix: Yesterday for some weird reason I actually had two toss do it vs me. Now I don't play bio, but if I did I don't see how they would have dealt with marines. Cyclones did pretty reasonable though, only it is a very close one: If he has enough phoenix to lift them all and still some spare, he will slaughter the cyclones. If not, the phoenix are screwed. Now the protoss should be able to outproduce the terran with phoenix vs cyclones, but the toss needs more than phoenix. So this gives a large risk that if he comes in with 5 phoenix, he leaves with none due to cyclones. | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On December 24 2015 11:39 EAGER-beaver wrote: Anyone know how to stop the adept/mother ship core/pylon rush opener? There are a few things you can do. Depending on your opening, if you go gas first into a cyclone - its probably the ideal way of killing it. If you open with marine (cc first into 3 rax for example) you might get away with 1 bunker if you wall with 2 depots and a bunker, otherwise if your rax is there you need 2 bunkers (left and right, for both pylon positions). YOu will need to repair here, but if he focusses your SCVs, the bunker lives, and if he focuses the bunker the scvs live. You might lose a depot or two but replacing them should be ok. Depending on your control you can end up ahead or behind after holding it. remember these points to judge your position in the game. every pylon costs 100 minerals his expansion is proably much later than yours (you can lose some scv) his production is delayed | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 24 2015 17:49 Sissors wrote: Only I wouldn't try the mass phoenix: Yesterday for some weird reason I actually had two toss do it vs me. Now I don't play bio, but if I did I don't see how they would have dealt with marines. Cyclones did pretty reasonable though, only it is a very close one: If he has enough phoenix to lift them all and still some spare, he will slaughter the cyclones. If not, the phoenix are screwed. Now the protoss should be able to outproduce the terran with phoenix vs cyclones, but the toss needs more than phoenix. So this gives a large risk that if he comes in with 5 phoenix, he leaves with none due to cyclones. Okay I take it back: Don't use cyclones against phoenix, he will outproduce you  . (They are a bit sad when I switch to thors though). | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I do a push against Zerg shortly after he has taken his third. What I wonder is what air unit should I use to support my marines and hellions for this push. Is it better to go for banshees or liberators? In my experience it seems easier to do damage with the push I go for a liberator, but cloak banshees are better if he rushes for ravagers or counter attack with roaches or roach/ravager. But which air unit is overall the most usefull for the initial push against the Zergs third? | ||
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Aquila-
516 Posts
On December 26 2015 03:11 MockHamill wrote: I open 1-1-1 while expanding to my natural. I have reactor both on the rax and on the factory. I do a push against Zerg shortly after he has taken his third. What I wonder is what air unit should I use to support my marines and hellions for this push. Is it better to go for banshees or liberators? In my experience it seems easier to do damage with the push I go for a liberator, but cloak banshees are better if he rushes for ravagers or counter attack with roaches or roach/ravager. But which air unit is overall the most usefull for the initial push against the Zergs third? I would add an armory and transform the hellions and add a medivac so all your units can be healed. | ||
Jer99
Canada8160 Posts
On December 26 2015 03:11 MockHamill wrote: I open 1-1-1 while expanding to my natural. I have reactor both on the rax and on the factory. I do a push against Zerg shortly after he has taken his third. What I wonder is what air unit should I use to support my marines and hellions for this push. Is it better to go for banshees or liberators? In my experience it seems easier to do damage with the push I go for a liberator, but cloak banshees are better if he rushes for ravagers or counter attack with roaches or roach/ravager. But which air unit is overall the most usefull for the initial push against the Zergs third? Go for a tech lab on rax instead and start stim, and go for hellion/banshee on their third. Drop a third CC behind the pressure. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
On December 26 2015 21:14 MockHamill wrote: If you not open reaper in TvZ how do you hold a a very fast ling/bane bust? Even with bunker behind the wall I cannot hold the bust since they just run mass lings past my bunker and into my mineral line. So you make no reapers and, since you have this problem, I assume no Hellions, what opening do you use? Also, I see no reason why you should not open with at least 1 Reaper in TvZ, it's superiour to SCV scouting or using scans and you're not going to survive in TvZ without scouting. Also what map was this on? I veto Lerilak Crest and open Hellion Banshee on Ruins of Seras because of the open natural. I think your opener is just not solid. If you want to be quite safe vs most Zerg builds and still have ways to pressure the Zerg: - Reaper FE, take your second gas right when you can after the second depot. - Factory when you can and starport when you can. Tech lab on Factory when it's done, produce a Tank and additional Tanks after that if you did not confirm there is no cheese coming (only way to confirm this is to basically keep your reaper alive until speed is done and check if they mined enough gas to do shenanigans @~3:20 (speed will be done after that which means your reaper will die, perhaps before you saw his gas mined). - Starport builds a liberator and after the liberator you build a medivac so you can micro tanks against the ravager shots. The liberator should stay defensive if aggression out of the Zerg is possible. If there is nothing coming you should send it to the Zerg base to kill some drones/ovies and scout what the Zerg is going to do next. You can also load 8 marines into the medivac and start dropping while harassing with the liberator if you won't need the medivac defensively. Take your third at around 4:00 if you confirmed there is nothing coming. Basically transition how you want after that. | ||
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Wrath
3176 Posts
Now TvZ: What is a possible solution to viper? 1- Ghosts? Snipe them before the battle begin since snipe does 170 damage they can 1 shot viper? 2- make a viking squad (6 viking) and keep scouting until getting the viper timing, then sneak the viking squad in the zerg base and 1 shot vipers 1 at a time? 3- ... Any other ideas? I play TvZ as follows: Hellion banshee play, I keep making banshee (around 5-6 banshees) and get the speed upgrade, if I see spire, I make liberators, other than that, I keep poking zerg while expanding and start making the ground mech army, Tanks and Hellbats. When the fight begins here what happens: - PB destroy my air - BC cover my tanks and roach hydra ravager destroy the rest. Sample replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6348466 | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 26 2015 21:14 MockHamill wrote: If you not open reaper in TvZ how do you hold a a very fast ling/bane bust? Even with bunker behind the wall I cannot hold the bust since they just run mass lings past my bunker and into my mineral line. When do you scout it? If you don't scout it at all, well you lose, that is kinda supposed to happen. Otherwise if you have time, your best bet is imo fortifying your wall. Make sure no single supply depot being destroyed allows him to enter your base. Factory/bunkers/other supply depots behind your normal ones can help you. On December 26 2015 23:59 WrathSCII wrote: I decided to swallow my pride and return to LOTV. Before I begin, I prefer slow painful death over playing bio. So do not suggest that please. Now TvZ: What is a possible solution to viper? 1- Ghosts? Snipe them before the battle begin since snipe does 170 damage they can 1 shot viper? 2- make a viking squad (6 viking) and keep scouting until getting the viper timing, then sneak the viking squad in the zerg base and 1 shot vipers 1 at a time? 3- ... Any other ideas? I play TvZ as follows: Hellion banshee play, I keep making banshee (around 5-6 banshees) and get the speed upgrade, if I see spire, I make liberators, other than that, I keep poking zerg while expanding and start making the ground mech army, Tanks and Hellbats. When the fight begins here what happens: - PB destroy my air - BC cover my tanks and roach hydra ravager destroy the rest. Sample replays: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6348466 Sniping them in his base is great when possible, but of course it is very situational. Personally with that composition I would worry more about broodlords + corruptors + vipers: When your vikings are down, it is game over. Against zerg ground make sure your tanks are not too clumped up (luckily I don't really see swarmhosts anymore, against which you are not allowed to spread out your tanks). A few missile turrets, or complete sim-city, can also help alot. Now if he has no corruptors you can keep your vikings quite far forward, and simply micro them against the vipers. When he has 10 corruptors and vipers behind that, it is getting more difficult. At this point I simply like to have many battlecruisers, with vikings/missile turrets as backup against corruptors, but the vikings need to keep back. Although in general battlecruisers are nice vs that as addition. Last game I tripple-yamato'd a single Viper. In hindsight that might not have been one of my better decissions, but it did die. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
If I do double rax factory I can hold this fighting with SCVs until I get enough marines and a tank out. But if I instead go 1-1-1 I have never been able to hold it no matter how much I try to micro my workers. I guess I could blindly counter this build by always going double rax factory. But the problem is that if they go 1-1-1 in it hard to have vikings out in time against a 1-1-1 push or banshees. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On December 27 2015 01:47 Sissors wrote: Well you start by scouting it, and adapting your BO. You cannot expect to have one BO which is save against every cheese and has no weak points. Scouting this type of cheese early requires some degree of luck, it is not possible to cover all possible proxy positions in time. I guess I have to change my opening to always be double rax into factory if I cannot confirm that he is building a factory or a CC on time. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
Of course it isn't perfect, however it would be a bit easy if it was a guaranteed win  . Something you can do: Do it yourself a few times, and see how your opponent defends it. | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On December 27 2015 00:46 MockHamill wrote: How do you protect against 3 rax reapers if you are doing a 1-1-1 build? If I do double rax factory I can hold this fighting with SCVs until I get enough marines and a tank out. But if I instead go 1-1-1 I have never been able to hold it no matter how much I try to micro my workers. I guess I could blindly counter this build by always going double rax factory. But the problem is that if they go 1-1-1 in it hard to have vikings out in time against a 1-1-1 push or banshees. Gas first reaper hellion holds this fine. I don't think marine-based gas first builds work on maps that aren't Ruins of Seras or maybe Dusk Towers. On maps with less cliff space (like dusk towers or lerilak) where reaper expand is more viable, you can similarly hold with reaper hellion provided you run away from the grenades properly and don't yet any of your units die. Accept scv damage instead of letting any units die. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
a) Spread them out trying to cover all 3 entrances. b) Position all of them at one entrance hoping he will jump in there. c) Near your mineral line since you cannot protect the entrances initially anyway. | ||
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