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Northern Ireland10776 Posts
On May 15 2019 21:10 skdsk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2019 20:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On May 14 2019 21:09 skdsk wrote:On May 14 2019 20:34 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 14 2019 20:19 skdsk wrote:
What happens if you dont follow any build and just focus on macroing, going full mutltask beast, attacking from all sides and micro as good as you can and just reacting on what opponent builds?
I know technically you wont be playing most efficiently, but is it decent way to practice and improve? I just find doing same thing over and over again boring and unfun.. but i still want to improve, right now im master2 terran. Im also practicing somewhat with zerg now (diamond2~) and noticed multitasking improvement on my terran play from it. You'll be weak to all ins and early timing attacks because they are designed specifically to take advantage of inefficient builds... yes, but thats not the point im asking. If I were you I’d follow a build schematic tightly and then try to play really reactively from whatever point you’re getting bored So get everything up and running, but maybe instead of not doing that 2-2 timing attack or whatever it is you’re doing, start freestyling it from there. I felt when I played regularly that this both helped me improve as a player, but also kept it fresh as I had to think more about my game instead of just executing a build and a timing attack. So perhaps instead of hitting a huge timing, start your 3-3, start multipronged aggression all over the place, and play for a longer game where you take more bases or have to transition to other lategame tech. You’ll die a lot but it’ll be fun and a learning experience. You’ll get better at keeping up your macro and multitasking behind aggression, and you’ll get more of a feel of what you can and can’t do at certain phases of the game. this is what il do, thanks for suggestion.
No problem, take my word for it you will die a lot though.
I historically main Protoss so I have had periods I’m probably even more bored of timing attacks than you are now, so I played the old Liquid HerO death by a thousand cuts warp prism style way back when.
Which was really fun and made me better, but watching replays there were tons of times I could have just killed Zergs outright but because I was deliberately not hitting big timings I’d end up facing BL/Infestor and not able to kill them.
Likewise TvP when I was sick of ‘pulling the boys’ in that era.
By playing hyper aggressive all over the place in the lategame though, even if you’re losing a lot of games you’ll get better at keeping track of multiple armies and splitting them quickly, plugging holes in your own defences as you expand outward, plus minimap clicking I got a lot better at too. In shorter games you can get by almost just on hotkeys and camera hotkeys, so it’s a good way to practice minimap stuff too
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Just a note for all terrans out here: Polt is streaming something like 8h/day, every morning (EU time), almost everyday and his stream is a gold mine of information. Go check it out !
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On May 17 2019 16:09 LoneYoShi wrote:
Just a note for all terrans out here: Polt is streaming something like 8h/day, every morning (EU time), almost everyday and his stream is a gold mine of information. Go check it out !
Seconded. Polt's streams are awesome for learning ! And pretty chill for EU players who are watching in the morning. Waking up with his stream is very nice :D
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Northern Ireland10776 Posts
The cool thing about Polt’s stream is that it’s simultaneously really high level play, commentated and in English, and really well. And by Polt who IMO is one of the more intelligent players there have been in SC2 history. Plus Polt is really likeable to boot.
Great combo, great stream to learn from.
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Does any one have tips for exicuting inovation style 2 base push in tvp ( the build he did vs stats in the ro26 that gets 2 mines) . I have a horrendous winrate in the matchup(38%) and play around 4500 mmr(low masters) on NA server. My biggest challenge is that usually I can push up to the opponent’s base but I can’t do lasting or game ending damage. I set up bunkers and siege the natural but my opponent is eventually able to clean up my army with chargelots and even if I killed the nat they still have 2 base with better upgrades and are playing Protoss going into the late game.Often I lose to a counter Allin with chargelots and the warp prism. I just don’t understand how to make this strategy and the follow up work but feel like It should be possible at least since the pros do. Any tips/ advice would be appreciated.
Is there a deviation in the build I should be doing if I scout the fast 3 base with blink+mass gateway instead of the three base with collosi+blink? Should I cut the raven or is it still worth for anti armor missle and safety vs Dts?
If I scout no robo is their a diffrent timing I should hit? Or should I not do the Allin to begin with?
Generally I nail my macro in my replay so I always have the most units I could have when I do the push. So I don’t think it’s a macro problem but probably more of a decision making, build order, or execution problem.
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Northern Ireland10776 Posts
On June 04 2019 16:20 washikie wrote:
Does any one have tips for exicuting inovation style 2 base allins in tvp. I have a horrendous winrate in the matchup(38%) and play around 4500 mmr(low masters) on NA server. My biggest challenge is that usually I can push up to the opponent’s base but I can’t do lasting or game ending damage. I set up bunkers and siege the natural but my opponent is eventually able to clean up my army with chargelots and even if I killed the nat they still have 2 base with better upgrades and are playing Protoss going into the late game.Often I die to a counter Allin with chargelots. I just don’t understand how to make this strategy work but feel like It should since the pros do. Any tips/ advice would be appreciated.
Is there a deviation in the build I should be doing if I scout the fast 3 base with blink+mass gateway instead of the three base with collosi+blink?
Generally I nail my macro in my replay so I always have the most units I could have when I do the push. So I don’t think it’s a macro problem but probably more of a decision making, build order, or exicution problem.
If you have a build order down that works better than the rax-fact/rax-starport into tank raven marine I’d love to learn about it. Is it a mistake to build the raven if they go mass gate? And if so what should I make instead?
As far as my noob arse understands those builds are specifically designed around defensive Collosus builds and hit right at the transition before they get the second splash option in storm.
The raven is useful to snipe observers and deny information anyway, but it’s there to disable the Collosus when you hit that timing. You don’t get nearly the value from disable using it vs a few gateway units vs a few Collosus
Inno’s timings don’t seem that they’d be particularly good against gateway/heavy upgrade styles at least to my eye, you’re skimping on a third base but also ups yourself to hit that timing, but you’re hitting a timing window that isn’t there if they’re not going defensive collosus off a single or especially double forge
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On June 04 2019 16:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 16:20 washikie wrote:
Does any one have tips for exicuting inovation style 2 base allins in tvp. I have a horrendous winrate in the matchup(38%) and play around 4500 mmr(low masters) on NA server. My biggest challenge is that usually I can push up to the opponent’s base but I can’t do lasting or game ending damage. I set up bunkers and siege the natural but my opponent is eventually able to clean up my army with chargelots and even if I killed the nat they still have 2 base with better upgrades and are playing Protoss going into the late game.Often I die to a counter Allin with chargelots. I just don’t understand how to make this strategy work but feel like It should since the pros do. Any tips/ advice would be appreciated.
Is there a deviation in the build I should be doing if I scout the fast 3 base with blink+mass gateway instead of the three base with collosi+blink?
Generally I nail my macro in my replay so I always have the most units I could have when I do the push. So I don’t think it’s a macro problem but probably more of a decision making, build order, or exicution problem.
If you have a build order down that works better than the rax-fact/rax-starport into tank raven marine I’d love to learn about it. Is it a mistake to build the raven if they go mass gate? And if so what should I make instead? As far as my noob arse understands those builds are specifically designed around defensive Collosus builds and hit right at the transition before they get the second splash option in storm. The raven is useful to snipe observers and deny information anyway, but it’s there to disable the Collosus when you hit that timing. You don’t get nearly the value from disable using it vs a few gateway units vs a few Collosus Inno’s timings don’t seem that they’d be particularly good against gateway/heavy upgrade styles at least to my eye, you’re skimping on a third base but also ups yourself to hit that timing, but you’re hitting a timing window that isn’t there if they’re not going defensive collosus off a single or especially double forge
Do you have any suggestions for what I should do instead if I have built the tech for this build but I scout the third+ lots of gates and twilight? It feels like if I do nothing Protoss is just flat out ahead of me unless my mines get big hits since they will have better econ and often a 2 if not three upgrade lead. I’ve won games from this position but usually only vs weeker opponents who have thrown away their lead.
Is this just a build order loss unless I scout it earlier and switch into bio mine or something better vs zealots?
Does any one have a good transition?
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On June 04 2019 16:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 16:20 washikie wrote:
Does any one have tips for exicuting inovation style 2 base allins in tvp. I have a horrendous winrate in the matchup(38%) and play around 4500 mmr(low masters) on NA server. My biggest challenge is that usually I can push up to the opponent’s base but I can’t do lasting or game ending damage. I set up bunkers and siege the natural but my opponent is eventually able to clean up my army with chargelots and even if I killed the nat they still have 2 base with better upgrades and are playing Protoss going into the late game.Often I die to a counter Allin with chargelots. I just don’t understand how to make this strategy work but feel like It should since the pros do. Any tips/ advice would be appreciated.
Is there a deviation in the build I should be doing if I scout the fast 3 base with blink+mass gateway instead of the three base with collosi+blink?
Generally I nail my macro in my replay so I always have the most units I could have when I do the push. So I don’t think it’s a macro problem but probably more of a decision making, build order, or exicution problem.
If you have a build order down that works better than the rax-fact/rax-starport into tank raven marine I’d love to learn about it. Is it a mistake to build the raven if they go mass gate? And if so what should I make instead? As far as my noob arse understands those builds are specifically designed around defensive Collosus builds and hit right at the transition before they get the second splash option in storm. The raven is useful to snipe observers and deny information anyway, but it’s there to disable the Collosus when you hit that timing. You don’t get nearly the value from disable using it vs a few gateway units vs a few Collosus Inno’s timings don’t seem that they’d be particularly good against gateway/heavy upgrade styles at least to my eye, you’re skimping on a third base but also ups yourself to hit that timing, but you’re hitting a timing window that isn’t there if they’re not going defensive collosus off a single or especially double forge
You use anti-armor missile vs gateway builds. A marine heavy composition with +1 weapons and anti-armor missile absolutely shreds zealots. While I agree it's stronger vs collosi pushes, it's hardly a toothless push vs gateway. Stats tried gateway twice in their 5 games in group stages and lost both times.
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Northern Ireland10776 Posts
On June 06 2019 11:49 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2019 16:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 04 2019 16:20 washikie wrote:
Does any one have tips for exicuting inovation style 2 base allins in tvp. I have a horrendous winrate in the matchup(38%) and play around 4500 mmr(low masters) on NA server. My biggest challenge is that usually I can push up to the opponent’s base but I can’t do lasting or game ending damage. I set up bunkers and siege the natural but my opponent is eventually able to clean up my army with chargelots and even if I killed the nat they still have 2 base with better upgrades and are playing Protoss going into the late game.Often I die to a counter Allin with chargelots. I just don’t understand how to make this strategy work but feel like It should since the pros do. Any tips/ advice would be appreciated.
Is there a deviation in the build I should be doing if I scout the fast 3 base with blink+mass gateway instead of the three base with collosi+blink?
Generally I nail my macro in my replay so I always have the most units I could have when I do the push. So I don’t think it’s a macro problem but probably more of a decision making, build order, or exicution problem.
If you have a build order down that works better than the rax-fact/rax-starport into tank raven marine I’d love to learn about it. Is it a mistake to build the raven if they go mass gate? And if so what should I make instead? As far as my noob arse understands those builds are specifically designed around defensive Collosus builds and hit right at the transition before they get the second splash option in storm. The raven is useful to snipe observers and deny information anyway, but it’s there to disable the Collosus when you hit that timing. You don’t get nearly the value from disable using it vs a few gateway units vs a few Collosus Inno’s timings don’t seem that they’d be particularly good against gateway/heavy upgrade styles at least to my eye, you’re skimping on a third base but also ups yourself to hit that timing, but you’re hitting a timing window that isn’t there if they’re not going defensive collosus off a single or especially double forge You use anti-armor missile vs gateway builds. A marine heavy composition with +1 weapons and anti-armor missile absolutely shreds zealots. While I agree it's stronger vs collosi pushes, it's hardly a toothless push vs gateway. Stats tried gateway twice in their 5 games in group stages and lost both times.
That does make sense as a tweak yeah, you can make on the fly and still hit a really nasty timing. As I said I am a noob so will defer to people who aren’t!
I was surprised Inno didn’t bring it out once in his Ro8, not sure if he felt it would dovetail well with how Trap plays, or if he felt he’d already shown it enough that Trap and his teammates would have been workshopping solutions.
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On May 17 2019 16:09 LoneYoShi wrote:
Just a note for all terrans out here: Polt is streaming something like 8h/day, every morning (EU time), almost everyday and his stream is a gold mine of information. Go check it out !
His stream is so good. I love his playstyle, because it's so resilient and you learn a lot about decision making versus having to micro like crazy.
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Hi guys
does anyone have a pro game vod or a a build order for a 1 rax expand into Battlecruiser that then goes into mechanical
I have been searching and haven't had any luck
thanks in advance
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On June 18 2019 07:28 adMachine wrote:
Hi guys
does anyone have a pro game vod or a a build order for a 1 rax expand into Battlecruiser that then goes into mechanical
I have been searching and haven't had any luck
thanks in advance
I don't have anything right now, but I remember seeing SpeCial doing that vs Scarlett a few days ago, in the chinese Gold tournament if I remember correctly.
Hope it helps.
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I'm losing alot, I really struggle in TVT, the games I win is because my opponent is barely macroing but I will usually have more units and scvs at every point in the game but I just suck at position and control, anyway to improve that? Should I just sensor tower the whole map lmao
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On June 23 2019 11:42 Conut wrote:
I'm losing alot, I really struggle in TVT, the games I win is because my opponent is barely macroing but I will usually have more units and scvs at every point in the game but I just suck at position and control, anyway to improve that? Should I just sensor tower the whole map lmao
Making additional sensor towers as you expand is good. I feel I had same problems and my TvT winrate was awful back then. Always send units to control all passes to your bases and don't be greedy with scans. Even 3-4 scans in a row is not too many sometimes. Map control is certainly the key in TvT. After I stopped being greedy, my TvT winrate got much better.
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So I used to be (or still are?) horrible in TvT (4600 MMR EU currently with Terran), boasting a 40% winrate this season (which is inflated even, as a lot of people like to proxy reaper and I feel very confident against that build). I followed the most basic of basic builds (you know, the 3reaper 2hellion fast 3rd gas 2raven opener everyone and their mom uses), and would lose against my opponent doing the same build, just because he outplayed me throughout the game. I won't bore you any further with backstory or my process of analysis but after seeing a bunch of replays from a GM player ignoring vikings and being successful, I ended up with the conclusion that I needed more marines and fewer vikings.
So I've been doing the basic bitch opening described above, but just completely ignoring viking production after the 2nd raven and instead making more barracks, faster engi bays and more marines. This feels very comfortable and I have won my last 4 TvTs by a huge margin, even those going beyond 15 minutes. For the lack of vision and against slowpushes I usually just scan to maintain vision, or go in with my ravens from an odd angle to get disables on the tanks before stimming in my marines.
My questions are as follows:
1. I bank a lot of gas throughout my games, what should I spend it on? I don't feel like I am playing 'optimally' with this style when I have 2000 gas in my bank. Ravens? Triple armory?
2. I'm sure there is a way to exploit a no-viking TvT style and that will I encounter it eventually, but what would be such an exploit? From my understanding of the match-up, vikings are there to spot for your siege tanks and perhaps pick off a raven or medivac here and there, it doesn't seem like they have much use aside from that. In my previous viking TvT games the opponent would just drop scans when he lost the viking war and catch me sieging into position to exploit his lack of vision and destroy me.
3. Is there another master-or-higher Terran here who utilizes a similar TvT style, and if so, would you be willing to share replays with me?
Thanks a bunch!
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Blazinghand
United States24956 Posts
My understanding is that if you have spare gas, double upgrades on bio can be worth it. A few medivacs, or more tanks, can also be good.
One problem I've run into when losing the viking war is if the enemy gets liberators with range upgrade. They outrange marines and can force me to unsiege my tanks and back up, which is a big problem. Thors can be ok against them, but They seem to do ok damage vs thors if they are a lot of them, and thors don't outrange them either, which means that if our tanks are sieged up just out of range of each other, i can't run thors or marines forward to kill the libs.
Without range, it's pretty manageable. Here's an example screenshot, with the two tanks on the right sieged up just out of range of the two tanks on the left, to simulate a TvT siege tank standoff.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oSiMDRo.jpg)
Like this, I can poke at them with thors and such pretty safely.
Once they get the range upgrade though, any of my ground units that move up to shoot at them end up being shot by tanks, and if I'm losing the viking war, it's a big problem:
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/S32modI.jpg)
I'm sure there are other ways to convert an air advantage into forcing me to unsiege and back up, but this is one of the ones that gets me the most.
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Thanks a lot for your reply, especially the effort to include pictures is appreciated as it really helped demonstrate your point.
I have another question: I don't think I have ever won against a zerg properly executing early nydus/drop attacks. I have attached a replay. This replay is especially painful because my opponent was about 500 MMR below me (I am ~4600, he was ~4100. I queued unranked because my computer has been acting up and randomly restarting itself during sc2 games). Sure, I didn't execute everything as flawlessly as I could have, but keep in mind that I am Master 3 and not Maru, neither is my opponent Serral or Reynor.
I open up with reaper expand into reactor hellions into cloak banshee. I manage to scout absolutely everything with my reaper and know it is coming, yet still die horribly to it, even after absolutely annihilating his drop attempt. I could have had my armory up earlier as hellbats would perhaps have stopped the first Nydus from popping up, but there's really nothing preventing him from just setting up a Nydus in my main right after. He even messed up and forgot to load up lings in his Nydus, nor did he transfuse it after the queens popped out.
I feel so utterly lost against this opener with my opener, even though my opener is supposed to be 'ultra safe'.
https://drop.sc/replay/11021147
please no advice of the 'git gud' variety
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Hate shilling but I got a youtube channel just dedicated to showing builds and what your timings are and should look like as well as explanations on how to hit them. Can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsqL7k7Vx9X3xsy5OGFbHFg?view_as=subscriber
Furthermore, a lot of you guys have to acknowledge that Terran is the hardest race. Not just because of their units but because of the macro role they exist in. With how Terran works it has the worst macro of the 3 races but it makes up for this by having the best aggression and harassment which force the other races to halt their macro and if they do take damage eventually fall behind. It is a very double-edged sword mechanic because if you're doing your aggression and damage correctly you'll just get more and more ahead whereas if you aren't succeeding anywhere you will just fall apart. This is most relevant in TvZ with a +2 +2 push- Terrans strongest timing in the MU whether its mech or bio your goal is to always hit before the hive is done. My advice for most of you here is to learn what your build is meant to do. Cause copying a build is easy- understanding what it does or what its actual timings are is what separates GMs and Masters. Also, you may want to do additional studying into what each MUs unit compositions are. A big one that a lot of people don't know is marine-tank/mech into air superiority. It is obvious why you would want air superiority yet I see a lot of players under 5k neglect it due to thinking drops or more army is more useful, in the grand scheme of things someone who goes double raven will not die to your aggression regardless of your build if they play it properly. And yes this can be said for a lot of builds but it is so magnified with how the raven works that most people have accepted playing TvT to either cheese/contain your opponent or turtle up to 4 bases and win by having a large air army. Whether you're mech or bio if you're struggling in TvT and don't win by having a larger air army you're not winning properly (Usually because your opponents making more mistakes than you are tbh). TvZ a lot of people need to understand your goal is just hitting timings and clearing out creep in the direction of the zergs newest hatchery, you're always going for the most exposed parts of them and slowly and "Efficiently" drying them out. An average TvZ to tell if you're doing okay should always have you checking resources lost. You want to always trade 4000 resources better than the Zerg. TvP is a bit more complicated it involves taking plenty of series of trades and hitting strong timings to slow the protoss down while ramping up a bigger army until you can overwhelm them.
One final note - if you're doing a pros build or a meta build correctly you will not be floating $ only exception is bio with gas and that is just naturally how your $ should look. In the late game drop down a ton of starports or something and go mass bc or mass Liberator Viking Ghost.
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On June 30 2019 04:38 Ryu3600 wrote:
snip.
I'm not necessarily against advertising but if you do you should include your MMR.
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WCS
